A question for any experienced meditators

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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:52 pm

Tibetans call it being caught in the god realms
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby meeks on Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:27 am

Fa Xing wrote:I had a similar experience like this when I was a young monk. Best thing to do is be aware of it, not place any particular value to it, it is what it is, and just keep on meditating. You'll get a lot of different experiences here and there that are not necessarily experienced by others, this is why it's always good to have a teacher or other more advanced practitioners to bounce things. Of course, they'll just tell you to be aware of it and keep meditating.


excellent advice. many people practise the meditation and when an experience finally occurs they get distracted by it, starting following or basking in the experience itself - which is the moment they often stopped meditating because they're chasing the effects of it. Just keep doing what you're doing Northern_Mantis, it sounds like you're really having some good work happening.

"Think Qi no real qi... no think qi... maybe qi comes"

Acknowledge the experience but stay 'in the zone' when meditating.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby meeks on Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:31 am

also - never approach meditation with "I hope this happens again" - you stop moving forward. Energetic and spiritual experiences happen when you are ready for them. Once it happens you've received what you were needing, and now it's time to continue forward in your meditation with integration, contemplation, and continuation. Begin each meditation with "I wonder what will happen this time" (allowing you to move forward) rather than "I hope that happens again" (repeating an experience you no longer need).

Just wanted to toss this one onto the fire for everyone reading this thread - I think we've all been guilty of this at some point.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:42 pm

northern_mantis wrote: definitely have hit a new chapter and I'm pretty sure it's a good thing, no side effects so far.

Basically any really evocative experiences

I've been taught about all kinds of phases of development but this one seems to not fit any of those. If anybody has experienced anything similar or is particularly knowledgeable I would be grateful for any input.


Hi, I have done all kinds of different meditations, Some seriously and some not.
Although I do not consider myself an expert, I have had some incredibly vivid experiences...
Three of them that I feel are important to see and to let go of.
1. A gold interlocking octagon with some kind of ancient writing on it.
It appears to be a lock of some type. It hides a tunnel from the minds eye.
2. The tunnel itself.
3. The inner sun.
I've been told that the inner sun has something to do with the Bardo phase of death and rebirth.

Anyway's, I do not do any mediation anymore. I have found that these type of practices are far to dangerous.
It's something that is just better off left alone. Once you open the minds eye, it is very difficult to shut it.
People dream of opening the mind eye and listen to people who consider themselves experts...?
When your dealing with things like "the mind" or "your mind", there is no such thing as an expert and
I certainly would not trust anyone.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Peacedog on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:53 pm

I'd say the real issue is the ability to differentiate between a particularly powerful/vivid meditative experience and meditative deviation or negative side effects.

Developmental level meditative work physically changes you. Sometimes in subtle ways (i.e. increased empathic abilities) and sometimes in not so subtle ways (i.e. gaining 30 pounds and developing an integrated fascial/tendon network resulting in the golden bell abilities).

Often times a cessation of practice will result in an unwanted deviation gradually dampening down and grounding out.

Sometimes it doesn't.

As long as people keep showing up at my door looking for relief after having been broken by some random a-hole teacher who started something in them and didn't know how to fix it, I will have an interest in trying to better control and repair the side effects of these phenomena.

It is not an issue for everyone. It is a significant issue for some people. And the cavalier approach to practice and technique within the meditative arts community really doesn't help a lot. The secrecy and "i'm special" crap doesn't help either.

Granted, I tend to call out people who break others and use the lame excuse of "its their karma", etc. as an excuse to not get off their ass and fix the problem they created. So, my opinion on this stuff is a little more polarized than most.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:09 pm

Peacedog wrote:
Developmental level meditative work physically changes you. Sometimes in subtle ways (i.e. increased empathic abilities) and sometimes in not so subtle ways (i.e. gaining 30 pounds and developing an integrated fascial/tendon network resulting in the golden bell

So are you really saying that if a person just does some sort of sitting meditation that they can in fact acquire iron shirt or Golden Bell as you put it? Do you have any proof of this?
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Peacedog on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Willie,

I didn't mean to imply that all. My apologies if it was taken that way.

The point I was trying to make is that due to the physical changes to things like the architecture of the brain for example, if a deviation goes on long enough without remedy it might be impossible to get back to a point of stability.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:29 pm

Peacedog wrote:
As long as people keep showing up at my door looking for relief after having been broken by some random a-hole teacher who started something in them and didn't know how to fix it, I will have an interest in trying to better control and repair the side effects of these phenomena.


Granted, I tend to call out people who break others and use the lame excuse of "its their karma", etc. t.

Okay so you didn't mean that literally? Okay fine.
Then could you please give me a couple examples of things that other teachers have done to mess up their students that you had to somehow repair?
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Michael on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:33 pm

willie wrote:Anyway's, I do not do any mediation anymore. I have found that these type of practices are far to dangerous.
It's something that is just better off left alone. Once you open the minds eye, it is very difficult to shut it.
People dream of opening the mind eye and listen to people who consider themselves experts...?
When your dealing with things like "the mind" or "your mind", there is no such thing as an expert and
I certainly would not trust anyone.


I agree to a large extent.

Finding someone who is trustworthy to repair your car is easier in a small town where everyone knows each other, but in a big city frauds can survive indefinitely. In comparison, if you lived in a small community with an expected number of schools or teachers of meditation, martial arts, yoga, etc., it would be obvious which schools provided which results, but there is no reliable Yelp! for internal cultivation because those results are not as simple to interpret and immediately obvious as a bad valve job or some botulism.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Peacedog on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:51 pm

I'd say probably 75% have some kind of sensory perception problem. They see things, hear things or have odd tactile responses to stimuli. The other 25% have kundalini related issues of burning sensations in the body or trouble with uncontrolled out of body projection.

As long as the sensory problems aren't caused by drug use I've had pretty good results conducting re-education of their sensory apparatus (sight, sound, touch and smell) using the exercises from the Franz Bardon school of Hermetics.

The kundalini related issues are tougher as it requires them to finish going through kundalini awakening and my go to for that are the micro-cosmic orbit based meditations.

The heart breaking cases are where a combination of drug use, usually THC products, and meditative based practices collide. I really haven't been able to help those people and I sadly don't know anyone who can.

If the problem has been going on for less than a couple of years complete resolution of the issue is possible. If it is longer than that mitigation and down regulating the deviation seems to be about the best people get.

Now keep in mind all of these folks still had an ability to focus and had never been on schizophrenic medication or only been on low doses for a short period of time.

The guys people see wandering around homeless and muttering to themselves I certainly have no ability to help and I don't know of anyone who can.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:11 pm

Peacedog wrote:I'd say probably 75% have some kind of sensory perception problem. They see things, hear things or have odd tactile responses to stimuli. The other 25% have kundalini related issues of burning sensations in the body or trouble with uncontrolled out of body projection.


The kundalini related issues are tougher as it requires them to finish going through kundalini awakening and my go to for that are the micro-cosmic orbit based .

I have a couple more questions if you don't mind?
Did you ever tell the people to win the Kundalini exercises that all they really have to do is just stop doing it all together? Did you tell them that they will just go back to normal? Did you tell them that they're is really no real good reason to tamper with it in the first place?

There is also a gateway that stops an overflow of the subconscious mind into the conscious mind. That gate is supposed to be there it is to protect you from the overwhelming information that the mind has stored throughout your entire lifetime. These are some of the dangers of tampering with the natural mind.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:13 pm

willie wrote:
Peacedog wrote:I'd say probably 75% have some kind of sensory perception problem. They see things, hear things or have odd tactile responses to stimuli. The other 25% have kundalini related issues of burning sensations in the body or trouble with uncontrolled out of body projection.


The kundalini related issues are tougher as it requires them to finish going through kundalini awakening and my go to for that are the micro-cosmic orbit based .

I have a couple more questions if you don't mind?
Did you ever tell the people with the Kundalini exercises that all they really have to do is just stop doing it all together? Did you tell them that they will just go back to normal? Did you tell them that there is really no real good reason to tamper with it in the first place?

There is also a gateway that stops an overflow of the subconscious mind into the conscious mind. That gate is supposed to be there it is to protect you from the overwhelming information that the mind has stored throughout your entire lifetime. These are some of the dangers of tampering with the natural mind.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby TrainingDummy on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:45 pm

willie wrote:I have a couple more questions if you don't mind?
Did you ever tell the people to win the Kundalini exercises that all they really have to do is just stop doing it all together? Did you tell them that they will just go back to normal? Did you tell them that they're is really no real good reason to tamper with it in the first place?

There is also a gateway that stops an overflow of the subconscious mind into the conscious mind. That gate is supposed to be there it is to protect you from the overwhelming information that the mind has stored throughout your entire lifetime. These are some of the dangers of tampering with the natural mind.


Not everybody just "goes back to normal" on the suspension of practices and fear mongering on "tampering with the natural mind" just builds up tension that makes their symptoms worse. I've met some people who were still having spontaneous openings years after stopping their original practices. Some students need to go through the process to the point where they can turn the hallucinogenic experiences on or off at will.

To the OP, there's both Indian and Tibetan Buddhist tantra teachings that take the expanded states of consciousness as "fuel" for the higher practices, might be an idea to speak with your teachers about them or get new teachers.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:21 pm

TrainingDummy wrote:
Not everybody just "goes back to normal" on the suspension of practices and fear mongering on "tampering with the natural mind" just builds up tension that makes their symptoms worse. I've met some people who were still having spontaneous openings years after stopping their original practices. Some students need to go through the process to the point where they can turn the hallucinogenic experiences on or off at will.

To the OP, there's both Indian and Tibetan Buddhist tantra teachings that take the expanded states of consciousness as "fuel" for the higher practices, might be an idea to speak with your teachers about them or get new teachers.

There's a big difference between fear-mongering and just being smart. What I'm wondering is if these poor individuals who walk around having hallucinations that they can turn on or off at will where ever even warned that they may have that happen to them in the first place.
And what was the grand prize supposed to be for risking their Mental Health?
From my limited understanding these meditations are supposed to be used during death. It is supposed to be a way of controlling the mind while a person is dying and help steer the consciousness through the Bardo phase of death and rebirth. so what is the point if the people are Christians and don't even believe in rebirth?
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby willie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:23 pm

willie wrote:
TrainingDummy wrote:
Not everybody just "goes back to normal" on the suspension of practices and fear mongering on "tampering with the natural mind" just builds up tension that makes their symptoms worse. I've met some people who were still having spontaneous openings years after stopping their original practices. Some students need to go through the process to the point where they can turn the hallucinogenic experiences on or off at will.

To the OP, there's both Indian and Tibetan Buddhist tantra teachings that take the expanded states of consciousness as "fuel" for the higher practices, might be an idea to speak with your teachers about them or get new teachers.

There's a big difference between fear-mongering and just being smart. What I'm wondering is if these poor individuals who walk around having hallucinations that they can turn on or off at will were ever even warned that they may have that happen to them in the first place.
And what was the grand prize supposed to be for risking their Mental Health?
From my limited understanding these meditations are supposed to be used during death. It is supposed to be a way of controlling the mind while a person is dying and help steer the consciousness through the Bardo phase of death and rebirth. so what is the point if the people are Christians and don't even believe in rebirth?
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