Pa kua

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Re: Pa kua

Postby Trick on Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:34 am

northern_mantis wrote:Just to play devils advocate....Maybe if people like this were to come out and say I learnt a bit of karate then just ran with it, judge it on it's own merits, they wouldn't get a particularly warm reception from the MA community. Perhaps they feel that they need to invent a lineage to satisfy the lineage obsessed.

To paraphrase Master Wong....'Who's my teacher? None of your Mother F****in business!'

The Kata event during a Karate NationalChampionship (Sweden) one of the competitors was a guy who was introducing EdParkers Kempo Karate (I think it is called) the guy did a good form(kata), the head judge summoned the corner judges and they all gave red flags, the head judge told the performer 'that ain't karate' basically told him to get lost......Felt sorry for the guy.......
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Re: Pa kua

Postby northern_mantis on Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:02 pm

Trick wrote:The worst or maybe funniest I seen live was at an martial arts demo in my 'Swedish' hometown. A couple of demonstrators who claimed to do Shaolin Gong fu. Dressed in some home made monk looking robes and Nike/adidas jogging/running shoes performing some Heian,Bassai-dai Kata's (karate forms) seriously bad, trying to whirl "staffs" in a gongfuei way, the staffs where those orange marker staffs put along country/high ways in wintertime...crazy


Sounds like you must have caught one of the shows on the shaolin "monks" tour ;D
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Finny on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:57 pm

northern_mantis wrote:Just to play devils advocate....Maybe if people like this were to come out and say I learnt a bit of karate then just ran with it, judge it on it's own merits, they wouldn't get a particularly warm reception from the MA community.


Maybe they wouldn't get a particularly warm reception in the marketplace, not just the MA community.

I understand you were just playing devil's advocate, but it's an obvious rebuttal.

If you are teaching something as a business, you owe your customers honesty.. IMO.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:23 am

Finny wrote:If you are teaching something as a business, you owe your customers honesty.. IMO.


Interesting speaking purely from a business perspective. People sell services using all kinds of trick and branding methods. How the company looks behind the branding is not important, only the service is. The important thing is to give the customer what they want and what they pay for. So what do these people pay for? Many who do MA have no clue about historicity and authenticity. They do it for the social aspects and for the physical practice. So the people you see in the vid are probably mostly people who payed for what they got and enjoy what they do.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby wiesiek on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:44 am

-break- so good for them,
and
even better for us,
`cause if by any chance have to fight with them its goin` to be free lunch... 8-)
Joyful Fruits of the Live
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:51 am

Finny wrote:
If you are teaching something as a business, you owe your customers honesty.. IMO.

If they are doing a business then they have to do it as a business.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Finny on Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:21 am

Bao wrote:
Interesting speaking purely from a business perspective. People sell services using all kinds of trick and branding methods. How the company looks behind the branding is not important, only the service is. The important thing is to give the customer what they want and what they pay for. So what do these people pay for? Many who do MA have no clue about historicity and authenticity.


You are right - people do sell services using all kinds of trick and branding methods. That is why we have IP law and trademark infringement, departments of consumer and employment protection etc.

As you say, the important thing is to give the customer what they want and what they pay for.

What do these customers want? What are they paying for? They clearly want to learn "Pakua" - that's why they're there. They are paying to learn a martial art called "Pakua".

Are they being given what they pay for?

Bao wrote:They do it for the social aspects and for the physical practice. So the people you see in the vid are probably mostly people who payed for what they got and enjoy what they do.


Who are you to decide what they do it for?

Sure - easy to dismiss fraud and fakery as unimportant when it doesn't impact you.

For what it's worth, I discovered this group a few weeks ago when a young chap posted on another forum, stating he'd been training there for a year or so, but all he could find online regarding the history of the school were rumours of fabrication and fraud. Unfortunately due to the rules of that forum preventing "style bashing", all I could do was advise the kid to take those rumours very very seriously, and investigate Baguazhang.

I'm not one for crusading, but I also believe in calling a spade a spade. Unfortunately it seems south america is rife with MA fakery.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:18 am

Finny wrote:Who are you to decide what they do it for?

Sure - easy to dismiss fraud and fakery as unimportant when it doesn't impact you.


It was a general reflection. I don’t decide anything. If people wants authenticity then there’s a buyers responsibility as well. All of the people you see here can look at history, compare styles and schools. If they wanted something genuine, they will be disappointed. But if you find out the truth after having studied for many years without being critical, without comparing and looking for what is genuine, then you have only yourself to blame and it would stupid to have buyers remorse. What you see in these vids are people with brains, who can think for themselves, with enough IQ to participate in the classes and with full access to anything that is on the internet, on social media, forums, YouTube etc. So there is no reason to feel sorry for them.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby edededed on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:10 pm

Actually... bagua "nunchakus" do exist! :D Don't know the history of it, though. Never heard of bagua archery, though...
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Finny on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:08 pm

Bao wrote:It was a general reflection. I don’t decide anything. If people wants authenticity then there’s a buyers responsibility as well. All of the people you see here can look at history, compare styles and schools. If they wanted something genuine, they will be disappointed. But if you find out the truth after having studied for many years without being critical, without comparing and looking for what is genuine, then you have only yourself to blame and it would stupid to have buyers remorse. What you see in these vids are people with brains, who can think for themselves, with enough IQ to participate in the classes and with full access to anything that is on the internet, on social media, forums, YouTube etc. So there is no reason to feel sorry for them.


No worries - it's just a general reflection I disagree with.

Of course it is the individual's responsibility to research and examine for authenticity.

With the advent of the internet, it has become the premier source of information. If there is no information about a fraudulent school online, because those who know the truth 'can't be bothered' - what is a young, uninformed person going to do, other than believe the lies published by the frauds, on their own website?

As I said, I don't believe in crusading. But what's wrong with pointing out fraudulent MA?
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:01 am

Finny wrote:With the advent of the internet, it has become the premier source of information. If there is no information about a fraudulent school online, because those who know the truth 'can't be bothered' - what is a young, uninformed person going to do, other than believe the lies published by the frauds, on their own website?

As I said, I don't believe in crusading. But what's wrong with pointing out fraudulent MA?


There's a whole lot of authentic Bagua out there, videos, books etc. everyone can compare by themselves. There are basic things. If a class use Japanese dresses and belts, andif the practice looks very different from what you can judge as authentic high quality Bagua, there should be a warning bell ringing somewhere in your brain. I believe anyone can see whar diamond shine the brightest if you have two diamonds side by side to compare. And also you can even more easily judge what is a stone and what is a diamond. So if you start practicing something without doing any background research, it's your own fault if you get cheated.

I've been on the bash McDojo crusade alright. It leads nowhere. People get cheated because they choose to not use their own judgment. If you attack a school or teacher, they will just become defensive and believe that it's you who are the dimwit. Nowadays it's so easy to compare stones and diamonds, there's no reason to tell someone he has picked up a stone.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby .Q. on Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:10 am

I'd say it's rather hard to determine good ones from bad if one has no foundation to begin with. To the layman I think most modern wushu looks 'better' than the traditional stuff. There's a lot of luck involved in finding decent instructions too. e.g., Look at the Kung Fu Quest TV series. Those guys are already knowledgeable yet when they tried to find masters of specific styles, they mostly found people who didn't know how to use it. It's not isolated to martial art either. Often when someone speaks with great confidence regarding a subject (e.g., car repair), they're either trying to swindle you or they're confident because they don't know enough to understand subtleties. I usually trust those people less.
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Re: Pa kua

Postby Bao on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:49 am

.Q. wrote:I'd say it's rather hard to determine good ones from bad if one has no foundation to begin with. To the layman I think most modern wushu looks 'better' than the traditional stuff. There's a lot of luck involved in finding decent instructions too. e.g., Look at the Kung Fu Quest TV series. Those guys are already knowledgeable yet when they tried to find masters of specific styles, they mostly found people who didn't know how to use it. It's not isolated to martial art either. Often when someone speaks with great confidence regarding a subject (e.g., car repair), they're either trying to swindle you or they're confident because they don't know enough to understand subtleties. I usually trust those people less.


Yes, the successful MCDojo's are great on branding, making their school and homepage look good. They do anything to make it as convincing as possible to keep the viewer/visitor from searching elsewhere or compare. People are also lazy and try to make excuses to ignore the warning bells. Yup, people are lazy and stupid. And only because they choose to be. Easy to take advantage of.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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