Vegas Shooting

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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:08 am

There's no doubt the ATF approved the sale because restricting "bump stocks" (or the other conversion kits) was not taken up by Congress. In any case, it wasn't because anyone at ATF thought it was a good idea. And, as I said, going against "bump stocks" is easy now, especially if they can be blamed on the previous administration.

Discovering Paddock's motive won't help anything. If they find out, they're not going to make laws preventing Paddock from obtaining anything obtainable. It doesn't matter whether he's on meds or off. He wasn't "crazy." I would say that he couldn't get off with an insanity defense, given the amount of preparation and planning required for his act. But, I'm also sure that there's no interest in judging him sane. Freud would understand.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:21 am

Michael wrote:I'm curious about Hodgkinson and now Paddock. I'm also really curious about a device the ATF approved for sale in 2010 that is said to be able to make a semi-auto nearly as fast as an auto.

Yeah, I know how these gun control debates go around and around, but that's this week's topic.



"Bump stocks, gunstocks designed to enable bumpfire, allow semi-automatic weapons to mimic the firing speed of fully automatic weapons. Devices (from complicated, specially made triggers to a low-tech rubber band) may be employed in order to aid in the "bumping".

Any weapon that is semi auto and magazine fed can be modifed in some way if a person understands how to do it. In most cases weapons like AR-15s are the modified versions of M-16 the org weapon which now M-16-A1 only fires 3 round burst in the auto mode. This was many yrs back might have changed.
looks they did

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

The why

" The ATF, in reply, wrote: “Your letter advises that the stock (referenced in this reply as a ‘bump stock’) is intended to assist persons whose hands have limited mobility to ‘bump fire’ an AR-15 type rifle.”

The device replaces the factory stock and grip. The replacement stock moves back and forth with the gun's recoil, allowing it to fire rapidly and continuously as the trigger repeatedly is bumped into the shooter’s finger. A switch allows the user to select semi-automatic fire (one shot for each trigger pull) or the more rapid “bump fire.”https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/bump-stock-device-received-atf-green-light-during-obama-administration

To mod an AR-15 internally is easy, the parts can be bought on line and are legal to buy, illegal to install and use.
Anyone not able to buy them could always make their own...also not so hard.

not into weapons of any kind, just find it strange that something that looks scary for some, is portrayed as such.

Lots of different types of long guns "rifles"
all can be used to kill people with.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:44 am

Paddock's motive may be relevant to the current political and social climate more than directly related to gun control and bump stocks. Perceived threat of confiscation by gun owners, who tend to be on the conservative/right, about far left-leaning liberals taking their guns could add to the split inside the country.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:48 am

Giles wrote:
Michael wrote: I'm also really curious about a device the ATF approved for sale in 2010 that is said to be able to make a semi-auto nearly as fast as an auto.


Purely FYI, a video posted before Las Vegas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4&has_verified=1

Any quibbling about technicalities aside, the device basically creates a "civilian machine gun".

That explains it. Pretty much full auto speeds, although I wonder how long until you melt the barrel.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:58 am

This one shows how inaccurate bump stocks are. The shooter had to get 15 yards away for any kind of accuracy with an AR-15.



[urlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE[/url]
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:32 am

This one shows how inaccurate bump stocks are. The shooter had to get 15 yards away for any kind of accuracy with an AR-15.


Afa accuracy, it's kind of dishonest to demonstrate shooting from a standing position when, according to reports, Paddock used a stand or object to stabilize himself. Plus, Paddock wasn't shooting at "a" target; he was shooting at a crowd. Turning the lights out would have helped, in hindsight; but, shooting from an elevated position into 20,000 people is not like shooting at a target.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_yVEiRrduw

We'll have to take the forensic reports to find out what type of ammo and weapons were used.

Afa the earlier comment about modifying AR-15s to operate like automatics. ARs are not constructed for full auto operation; they will overheat. They're not surplus M-16s (which is another story). But, Paddock had several; so, he could switch out. More importantly, he had lots of cash. There are plenty of machine guns in Nevada that are legal because they're considered collector's items and antiques. And, there are AK-47s out there too.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:54 am

Perceived threat of confiscation by gun owners, who tend to be on the conservative/right, about far left-leaning liberals taking their guns could add to the split inside the country.


It's ironic because "the left" doesn't want anyone's guns. You mean "taking their guns away," and that's true. Of course, that goes back to the question of motive. Why do they think that their guns are wanted or needed. What would they do if the left really did come to take their guns other than use them?

That's why the only solution now is to arm everyone, just like they wanted ... in the churches, schools, hospitals, stores, trains, planes, buses, cars, and don't forget the home. We can speculate whether there would be more or fewer mass shootings. It seems certain that some people we wouldn't want to have them will. I'm not even against guns. But, what the last few decades have taught me is that the media has allowed guns to be presented as the only solution. I'm talking conservative radio, FOX tv and internet conspiracy theorists. For some reason, this all reminds me of The Walking Dead.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:46 am

Repeal the second amendment.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:21 pm

All weapons guns can over heat and jam on auto anyone who's dealt with the old M-16s and the M-16A1's knows this.
Auto function in most cases is not meant for sustained fire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHm1EVyvYpA

Never worked with an AR-15, didn't think that there was that much difference.


The M-16 was derived from it, with a little work
one can mod the weapon to auto if desired although illegal.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:47 pm

Steve James wrote:
This one shows how inaccurate bump stocks are. The shooter had to get 15 yards away for any kind of accuracy with an AR-15.


Afa accuracy, it's kind of dishonest to demonstrate shooting from a standing position when, according to reports, Paddock used a stand or object to stabilize himself. Plus, Paddock wasn't shooting at "a" target; he was shooting at a crowd. Turning the lights out would have helped, in hindsight; but, shooting from an elevated position into 20,000 people is not like shooting at a target.

I didn't mean to directly compare the shooter in that video to the LV massacre, it was just a general comment about bump stocks. Like you mentioned, the LV massacre scenario of shooting down into a crowd of 20,000 people means the lesser accuracy of the bump stocks does not prevent hitting people.

After watching the video with the demonstration of bump stock accuracy at 25 yards compared to 15, compared to normal semi-auto, I'm not sure why a bump stock would be desirable. It is much less accurate and would probably lead to barrel over heat, just a guess on that, lots of variables.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:50 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:Repeal the second amendment.

Any concerns about unintended consequences, such as a constitutional convention leading to other changes totally unrelated to gun control and gun safety?
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Michael on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:56 pm

windwalker wrote:All weapons guns can over heat and jam on auto anyone who's dealt with the old M-16s and the M-16A1's knows this.
Auto function in most cases is not meant for sustained fire.

In boot camp, everyone's M-16 A2s were simply jamming machines when we were using blanks during an entire week of field training. Not sure if it had anything to do with the blanks and the use of blank flash arrestors added to the end of the muzzles, but the guns didn't jam during target shooting qualification week when we fired hundreds of rounds per day. It seemed obvious that the relatively clean conditions for target shooting compared to very minimal exposure to dirt and sand in the field use was the big difference. The real kicker was that it was impossible to clean the weapon to stop the jamming and it wasn't until we got out of the field and immersed them in a barrel of gun cleaning fluid that they would function again. Not really sure how a weapon like that is usable in combat, but luckily I never had to find out.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby yeniseri on Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:47 am

Michael wrote:This one shows how inaccurate bump stocks are. The shooter had to get 15 yards away for any kind of accuracy with an AR-15.



[urlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE[/url]


The central criteria is not inaccurate bump stocks are but the "fish in a barrel" scenario that was present on an unsuspecting audience.
The venue was chosen for a reason along with the height of the nest, and the weapons that were found on hotel premises

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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Ron Panunto on Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:26 pm

Michael wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:Repeal the second amendment.

Any concerns about unintended consequences, such as a constitutional convention leading to other changes totally unrelated to gun control and gun safety?


Well, I guess that could pose a problem, unless it's another improvement.
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Re: Vegas Shooting

Postby Steve James on Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:10 pm

They could just make gun manufacturers and those who make gun accessories like bump stock, etc., responsible for the acts committed with them.
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