Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[Michael]

They held a popular referendum in Catalonia last month, and despite police from the Madrid central govt attempting to shut down the election, Catalans voted overwhelmingly to secede. Madrid rejected the results and began issuing ultimatums, couple of weeks later the Catalonian parliament voted to leave.

During the referendum weekend, Catalonia persisted in non-violent resistance when police took ballots and closed polls, often targeting women for enhanced restraint, but Catalonians continue to insist on peaceful means to achieve their political goals. The EU is against Catalonian secession.

Steve, did you spend any time there?

[Steve James]

Yep, actually, my youngest daughter's mother is Catalan. It's a complicated issue, but Catalunya is one of the few economically prosperous regions of Spain. And, besides that, if Catalunya secession is successful, Gallicia and the Basque country will want independence, too.

Otoh, many Catalans don't want independence, and were happy having just regional authority. That's what Spain will take back. It's hard to say what will happen.

[Michael]

The videos I saw of Madrid the past couple of weeks from Tim Pool, as well as others posted by Assange, who seems to be particularly concerned about this, showed consistent non-violence from the Catalans, including local firefighters massing near doors that federal police were trying to enter to stop the elections.

First Greece, then the migrant crisis, followed by Brexit, Polish and Hungarian "rebellion" against Merkel's migrant quotas, and now Catalan. I see a trend.

[Michael]

President of the EU Parliament statement on secession.

[Steve James]

I saw the videos. The Catalan drive for independence goes back a long way in history. It's more like Wales seeking independence from England. I'm not sure immigration is an issue.

[Peacedog]

City states and small principalities have a pretty long history in Europe.

I don't think Catalonia has either a greater, or lesser, claim than anyone else.

The merger of these into larger states, notably by force, occurred over the last few hundred years largely in response to economic issues as smaller states aren't really viable. The EU was an attempt to bring some parity, economically speaking, between the US and the continent without the violence required to form an actual state.

The problem with Catalonia making a break for it is that it would theoretically empower any number of groups within EU states to do the same. None of which would be economically viable as states.

All of that said, I understand the dissatisfaction of the Catalonians with the socialists in Madrid taking all their cash. But lacking an army, or even a dysfunctional armed resistance like the Basques, the Spanish government looks set to start cracking heads. And the Catalonians are going to lose on that front.

[yeniseri]

Barcelona has always been an industrial city i.e. disciplined, City of Art, Gaudi and others but they realize now that peace at all costs will be bad. Pais Vasco went all out with violence because they understaood the means for freedom involved blood but Catalunya mistakenly believed that being peaceful for 500 years would be a door for autonomy but it got them nothing except being blackballed by the central authorities in Madrid.

Of, course, temperament is important. We will have to wait and see how this pans out!

[Bao]

Lol! it's very funny. Here in Europe many politicians believe that Tibet should be free and Hong Kong deserves independency. But when something happens here in Europe? Nope. No one stand up to Catalonia. Every politician believe that it belongs to Spain. The EU doesn't want to lose it.

Hypocricy.

EU had planned to move the The European Medicines Agency (EMA) from London to Barcelona. So this situation right now is good for us here in Sweden as Stockholm is the runner up. But I suspect the employees who looked forward to Barcelona will vote for Amsterdam instead.

[Michael]

The Catalan drive for independence goes back a long way in history. It's more like Wales seeking independence from England. I'm not sure immigration is an issue.

I meant a secessionist trend, sometimes because of immigration policy, sometimes for economic reasons and cultural preservation issues. My minimal look at Catalonia hasn't shown a single report they're motivated by immigration policy.

[Steve James]

Oh, I just meant that Catalunyan independence has always been spurred by a resentment over the imposition of Spanish language and culture. That goes back 500 years. In the modern age, Catalonians were forced to speak Spanish, and at times forbidden from using their own language. BTW, it's not a dialect of Spanish, nor a sub-culture.

[Michael]

Sounds similar to what is happening in Hong Kong, Tibet and Xinjiang, especially Hong Kong since they're Han Chinese, but a different group with their own language, culture, and much more money than the Beijingers.

[Steve James]

Yep. Very similar, imo.

[Strange]

speaking from a Singaporean perspective, state viability is a matter of political will; not measurable economic output

[Teazer]

Back in the old days the two requirements for statehood were 1. You could control your population sufficiently not to be overthrown, and 2. You could defend your borders sufficiently to not have your country invaded.
Were the French and Spanish a little less amiable they'd just invade Catalonia after their independence, take and redistribute their property etc

[Trick]

Back in the old days the two requirements for statehood were 1. You could control your population sufficiently not to be overthrown, and 2. You could defend your borders sufficiently to not have your country invaded.
Were the French and Spanish a little less amiable they'd just invade Catalonia after their independence, take and redistribute their property etc

The big machine of EU will probably be the one less amiable towards Catalonia