The Perfect Storm continues

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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby northern_mantis on Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:33 pm

Michael wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Agree. The balance has been tipped to one extreme for far too long. I know personally of several women who underwent all types of sexual abuse a few decades back and were never believed and/ or were actively and vigorously discouraged from speaking out and worse. If the price to pay for reversing that is a handful of dubious claims, so be it.

A handful of dubious claims?

Rob, would you be willing to pay that price yourself from a false rape or sexual assault accusation, to lose your reputation, your job, and do time in jail while your family suffers without your presence or your income, all in order to make up for past wrongdoings against women that you think were previously biased in the other direction?

Do you recall the false accusation of rape in a tube station by delusional and/or malicious Souad Faress against a completely innocent man when she said he fingered her while passing by? An obvious impossibility from the very CCTV footage used by police to identify him, yet the case went to trial anyway.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Uhe5WIfEc

Tried for a sex crime... because I brushed past a film star in rush-hour

So I guess giving the green light to more of this insanity of police not being able to dismiss obvious liars is some kind of reparations for past instances of men mistreating women, and that's men in general, not individual criminals?

Believe every accuser? Every time? Always? That's almost as absurd as most men are sexual predators. I don't think things are that simple. I won't give up the principle of a process of investigation in favor of allowing "a handful of dubious claims" to damage more innocent people. There's a well-established standard in place that is necessary to avoid several pitfalls that arise from letting an accusation go unchallenged.


That was exactly the example I had in mind. And after ruining that guys life with a provably false accusation the accuser gets to walk free.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Steve James on Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:53 pm

Believe every accuser? Every time? Always?


Who said that? [Answer: nobody.]

Besides. The counter would be "Disbelieve every accuser? Every time? Always?" is just as absurd. So, afa claims and assertions, unless you have personal knowledge that a claim is untrue, you have no reason to automatically discount it.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby KEND on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:07 pm

Geoffrey Rush, Gaffison Keiller[an icon of rural America who would have thunk it] the road goes on for ever and the party never ends
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:35 pm

RobP3 wrote:
Trick wrote:
RobP3 wrote: In the meantime, thousands of other offences, according to all the research, have gone unreported.

Kind of until now, at least with the "metoo" movement, and it could create a lot of problem for law enforcement. Who are getting hundreds of abuse offense reports daily about abuse done literally yesterday, and now celebrities come together and accuse and maybe report what happened years maybe decades ago. If the everage girls and guys can report quite immediately celebrities should be able too, then there maybe wouldn't be a storm now


The whole thing about non-reporting is historical, whether it was child abuse (Savile and co) or adult sexual assault. In the past people were warned off, discouraged or simply felt too ashamed to report. A lot has improved, but the statistics are chilling.

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Obviously abuse crime have been reported or registered somehow(how else can there be built statistics on it) but not directly to lawenfocment so a lot of these crimes wil never get lawfully tried, and I would think this probably gives green light for perpetrators to continue. If the crimes never get reported to the police, lawenforsement will never get enough founds and resources to deal with it in a proper way. Might lead to vigilante groups begin to deal with it in one way or another, It could erupt into a very confused and even chaotic scenario.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:02 pm

On today's yahoo headlines: - "How women's sexual intentions get misread study: there's a difference between being interested in having sex with someone and actually acting on that desire - and some guys can't differentiate between the two, a study says, confused" and continues "Some men mistake sexual interest for consent, new study shows"
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Michael on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:30 pm

Steve James wrote:
Believe every accuser? Every time? Always?


Who said that? [Answer: nobody.]

Besides. The counter would be "Disbelieve every accuser? Every time? Always?" is just as absurd.

Sorry, Steve, but you're wrong. It's being said quite a bit and it's rebounding back and forth at the extreme ends of the pendulum, appearing to have significant effect in the real world of the justice system.

It was this kind of, I don't what to call it, maybe "affirmative action prosecution" or "quota prosecution" that DPP Saunders in the UK used to push prosecutors all the way to trial in this example of a most ridiculous and malicious rape lie.

I think police should take sexual assault allegations seriously and follow up as needed, but when the evidence immediately shows the claim is false (in this case false and likely malicious), it should be dropped. While the accuser's name is concealed and the accused's name is published, in a case where the accuser is not a minor, that's also a potential problem of serious consequences based only on a claim.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Steve James on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Oh well, the problem is sexual harassment, not false claims. Like I said, the innocent have little to fear. For the guilty, I say tough nuggie. If a woman charges me falsely, I'll sue; but I won't change my mind about the issue. I.e., we're talking about people being fired from their jobs because of inappropriate sexual conduct. Either they did it or they didn't.

Anyway, I think that men should be standing up for the women. I think they should have been all along.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:09 pm

As long as the narrative of what is sexual harassment or not stays clear and not being pushed here and there as to once personal interpretations for the moment no one but the real sex offenders should be worried. I think all honest and descent people's should stand up for each other.........Funny how no one of my long time good friends and acquaintances female and male never have given away or showed any signs of being victims or perpetrators of sexual harassment, while others seem to know of many victims and maybe even perpetrators. Now I have been away from my home country for many years, seems as many things have drastically changed in the "western world"
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby RobP3 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:22 am

Trick wrote:As long as the narrative of what is sexual harassment or not stays clear and not being pushed here and there as to once personal interpretations for the moment no one but the real sex offenders should be worried. I think all honest and descent people's should stand up for each other.........Funny how no one of my long time good friends and acquaintances female and male never have given away or showed any signs of being victims or perpetrators of sexual harassment, while others seem to know of many victims and maybe even perpetrators. Now I have been away from my home country for many years, seems as many things have drastically changed in the "western world"


I think what has changed is that certain types of behaviour are no longer seen as acceptable. I remember, growing up, on TV and everywhere else the prevalence of the "dolly bird" who was just there to be groped and leered at. I've seen this happen in a couple of workplaces, only in one was it ever picked up on and criticised. Stories from family and friends are numerous, from low level to being felt up on public transport to rape, including on a woman with mental difficulties who crumbled in court and so her (martial arts instructor) attacker walked free.

OTOH there have been a handful of cases of wrongful or vindictive accusations, male and female and in some the perpertrators got punished.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale

https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

However when there are 85,000 women and 12,000 men raped a year, it seems clear where the problem lies and where we should be foccusing our outrage and indignation

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php
Last edited by RobP3 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Michael on Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:23 am

Steve James wrote:Oh well, the problem is sexual harassment, not false claims.

I think both are part of a serious social problem that can affect everyone, whereas much of the reaction I see in the headlines is a condemnation of men in general as the primary perpetrators.

The statistics that Rob posted of 850,000 rapes of women to 12,000 of men per year in the UK are very different from those I looked at about 15-20 years ago in the USA, where men were raped more than women, mostly in prison. Haven't looked at those for the USA in a long while, but I think there could be cause and effect, a kind of an overall vicious cycle of the victim becoming the perpetrator.

OTOH there have been a handful of cases of wrongful or vindictive accusations, male and female and in some the perpertrators got punished.

I'm trying to guess why in the case of Jemma Beale, after she'd accused a group of men of gang raping her for the third time no one in the police caught on while an innocent man previously convicted was sitting in prison.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby RobP3 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Michael wrote:I think both are part of a serious social problem that can affect everyone, whereas much of the reaction I see in the headlines is a condemnation of men in general as the primary perpetrators.

The statistics that Rob posted of 850,000 rapes of women to 12,000 of men per year in the UK are very different from those I looked at about 15-20 years ago in the USA, where men were raped more than women, mostly in prison. Haven't looked at those for the USA in a long while, but I think there could be cause and effect, a kind of an overall vicious cycle of the victim becoming the perpetrator.



"The Federal Bureau of Investigation have also collected data cases involving victims and perpetrators of rape:
Sex offense victims in 2012 (FBI):[14]
67,345 female
12,100 male
Convicted sex offenders in 2012 (FBI):[15]
4,394 female
70,930 male"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Michael on Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:01 pm

I'm still surprised by the difference in ratio between those FBI stats in the USA of 67:12 female to male victims, and the ones in the UK of 850:12 female to male victims. 850:12? Doesn't sound right.

The stats I looked at long ago had been collected by Stop Prisoner Rape, which focused on that particular problem that mostly affected men in prison. They were finally successful in 2003 to help get enough attention to have a federal law passed against rape in prison because it had been systemically ignored and even used as a punishment by staff with the help of inmates like the Booty Bandit.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:44 pm

Michael wrote:I'm still surprised by the difference in ratio between those FBI stats in the USA of 67:12 female to male victims, and the ones in the UK of 850:12 female to male victims. 850:12? Doesn't sound right.


They don't count boarding school, obviously.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Michael on Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:58 pm

Maybe they don't count juvenile detention in the UK, whereas rape is common there in the USA.

https://justdetention.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/FS-No-Safe-Place-Sexual-Violence-in-the-Juvenile-Justice-System.pdf
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby RobP3 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:58 am

Michael wrote:I'm still surprised by the difference in ratio between those FBI stats in the USA of 67:12 female to male victims, and the ones in the UK of 850:12 female to male victims. 850:12? Doesn't sound right.



Doesn't sound right or you don't want it to be right?

http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/26/sexual-assault-in-prison-if-i-get-sent-to-jail-will-i-be-raped-6596399/

In either case it just points to the problem, again, of crimes going unreported due to various factors.
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