Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:21 am

Johnathan Turley wrote:Flynn could well offer damaging information against higher figures, from Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner to the president himself. However, there is nothing in this indictment that offers serious support for the allegation of collusion with the Russians. Flynn lied on four occasions about conversations related to national security issues related to both Russia and Israel, including a conversation with then Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in a conversation with the FBI. The indictment indicates that Flynn discussed sanctions with Kislyak, a fact that not only contradicts his statement to the FBI but to Vice President Mike Pence. However, the White House can note that Flynn also misrepresented the meeting to the vice president and the Trump administration.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Steve James on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:35 am

But Michael, collusion is not a crime. Proving collusion is really not important or even about Trump, per se. The charge that's possible is obstruction of justice because he fired Comey to prevent him from continuing the FBI investigation.

I agree that focusing on possible collusion is a distraction. Then again, I don't start threads about how useless or effective the claims are. In the end, if no evidence that Trump colluded with any Russian emerges, but it's found that everyone on Team Trump did, his supporters will say "See, we told you." However, that would never address the problem.

Imo, the investigation has already provided a great service to the people. It's not about Democrats being upset that Trump won. Even if it were, it wouldn't match Trump's 8 year angst and agitation about Obama.

I think people should spend more time explaining how much better off America is now.

Oh, btw Michael, I don't read links to articles with click bait titles. The title is enough. And, if the poster can't summarize in his own words, I will look it up myself if I am interested.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:10 am

Steve James wrote:Oh, btw Michael, I don't read links to articles with click bait titles. The title is enough. And, if the poster can't summarize in his own words, I will look it up myself if I am interested.

Knowing that, it's why I wrote such a fabulous summary. :D
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:12 am

Another casualty of Trump Derangement Syndrome embarrasses herself live on air. Joy Behar celebrates ABC's fake news for 10 minutes, then gets Brian Ross' retraction. LOL.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK4aYqcHyYU
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Steve James on Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:30 am

Unfortunately, people are ready to believe anything that confirms their bias. They'll go on and on about it. Tsk, tsk, gotta be vigilant about that, and them.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:15 pm

Steve James wrote:Unfortunately, people are ready to believe anything that confirms their bias. They'll go on and on about it. Tsk, tsk, gotta be vigilant about that, and them.

Scott Adams (Dilbert) has a theory that Brian Ross had been so immersed in an environment of Trump-Russia collusion, that he unconsciously and unintentionally misconstrued or misunderstood a source's statement. Adams compares an extreme bias that could cause cognitive error to those visual tricks and optical illusions where your brain changes the colors of things.

https://www.livescience.com/14093-optical-illusions-gallery.html
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:01 pm

Mueller's investigation is supposed to be about Russian hacking in the November 2016 election, but Flynn is pleading guilty to lying about speaking to the Russian ambassador in December, after the election. Talking to other govt's would normally be completely legal and normal for an incoming administration, so on the surface, Flynn was just doing his job.

No one yet knows why Flynn lied to both the FBI and Pence about a totally legitimate and legal discussion with Kislyak, but perhaps it is related to his failure to register as a foreign agent for Turkey. When Trump found out Flynn lied, he fired Flynn, which he tweeted recently. There is some speculation Flynn got frightened by a Logan Act accusation since he wasn't yet officially a part of the govt. Maybe.

The FBI had a FISA tap on Flynn, Manafort, etc., (which Trump complained about at the time, that his phones were tapped, was poo-pooed) and they knew Flynn'd been with Kisoff, I mean Kislyak, but they got Flynn into a compromising position and made a Martha Stewart out of him.

How did Trump know Flynn lied around the same time as the FBI? Maybe someone inside the FBI thought that using a bogus FISA warrant to snoop on the Trump campaign was a perversion of democracy? Maybe someone inside the Clinton campaign who had previously leaked? Someone no longer with us?

Investigation so far has revealed Facebook, Twitter and a disorganized Ukranian bot farm did legal things to "influence" the election, while one of the FBI's lead investigators was removed and demoted for anti-Trump bias and the FBI refused Congress' request about this for months. Keep investigating. :P
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Steve James on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:21 pm

Mueller's investigation is supposed to be about Russian hacking in the November 2016 election


"Is supposed to be about" is a weak premise to build any argument. The intelligence agencies have all agreed that "Russians" attempted to influence the election. True. No one has shown or even alleged that Flynn helped Russians do anything in terms of the election. Mueller was sworn in after Comey was fired. Iinm, all that happened after the election.

I think it's useless trying to absolve Trump by pointing to Flynn or what was supposed to happen. Did anyone know that Manafort would be indicted?

And no, I don't think Trump asked anyone to ask Putin to do anything. I don't think he's that smart.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:46 pm

Steve James wrote:The intelligence agencies have all agreed that "Russians" attempted to influence the election. True.

But not true. It's 2 of 17 (CIA, NSA) plus FBI, and it was Hillary who popularized "all the intelligence agencies".

And no, I don't think Trump asked anyone to ask Putin to do anything. I don't think he's that smart.

;D

More likely Russian election influence is just a continuation of Russian propaganda I've seen since 2014 meant to emphasize US social divisions,which they've probably done as a response to our interference in Ukraine and Moscow. It's been very obvious in the reporting on RT since then. It goes so far that RT has refused to report on some Pro-Putin support inside the USA.

We've sown the seeds of our own discontent, Trump and Russia are cultivating them. Wrong, but allowed under First Amendment. Also wrong for us to be doing the same in Moscow and Maidan Square handing out cookies, US Ambassador to Syria actually walking with protesters in the street in March 2011, etc. Goose meet gander.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:58 am

Michael wrote:
Steve James wrote:The intelligence agencies have all agreed that "Russians" attempted to influence the election. True.

But not true. It's 2 of 17 (CIA, NSA) plus FBI, and it was Hillary who popularized "all the intelligence agencies".


Well, ok 3 of the 17, and I don't know who popularized the numbers. So, to clarify: "all" the intelligence agencies who investigated came to the same conclusion.

President Trump said on Thursday that only “three or four” of the United States’ 17 intelligence agencies had concluded that Russia interfered in the presidential election — a statement that while technically accurate, is misleading and suggests widespread dissent among American intelligence agencies when none has emerged.

The “three or four” agencies referred to by Mr. Trump are the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, the F.B.I. and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, all of which determined that Russia interfered in the election. Their work was compiled into a report, and a declassified version was released on Jan. 6 by the director of national intelligence. It said that all four agencies had “high confidence” that Russian spies had tried to interfere in the election on the orders of President Vladimir V. Putin.

The reason the views of only those four intelligence agencies, not all 17, were included in the assessment is simple: They were the ones tracking and analyzing the Russian campaign. The rest were doing other work.


It's an interesting way to state facts, though. But, what it doesn't mean is that the other 13 or 14 intelligence agencies disagreed or came to a different conclusion. That does not demonstrate, or even suggest, that the conclusion of the 4 agencies/offices that did investigate are wrong.

Anyway, I heard that Trump is trying to set up (if he already hasn't) his own secret agency to monitor the "deep state." It's actually the reason I'm addressing this now, since Trump will not accept the conclusions of the intelligence community, he'll set up his own to tell him what he wants to hear --and to investigate whomever he chooses. He's pissed at the FBI, CIA and NSA because they disagree with him. He denigrates them publicly; but, that's his way. And, I don't trust them; but, I trust him much less.

Afa anti-Russian stuff, I don't see how you can acknowledge that the US interferes or tries to interfere with other governments, yet somehow Russia wouldn't. It seems deliberately naive to deny Russian (or Chinese) intelligence initiatives in order to make an argument that Trump is right that our intelligence agencies are wrong.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Michael on Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:16 am

Steve James wrote:Afa anti-Russian stuff, I don't see how you can acknowledge that the US interferes or tries to interfere with other governments, yet somehow Russia wouldn't. It seems deliberately naive to deny Russian (or Chinese) intelligence initiatives in order to make an argument that Trump is right that our intelligence agencies are wrong.


Michael wrote:More likely Russian election influence is just a continuation of Russian propaganda I've seen since 2014 meant to emphasize US social divisions,which they've probably done as a response to our interference in Ukraine and Moscow.

Maybe it comes off like I'm denying something to prove Trump right, but that's not my intention. It's a coincidence that it appears to me the Russia hacking scandal has little to no merit for its existence and even less likelihood of having influenced the election if it did occur and that this opinion seems pro-Trump.

It's not that Trump is correct about Russia, it's that the dems have piled foolishly into the Russia scandal because they can't accept their own responsibility for losing the election and for not having much to offer, either during the election or now. Nor do the Repubs, but whatever.
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:36 am

You're just accepting a particular spin on why there's an investigation, not whether the Russians did it or not. If they did, it's not important to dems or republicans. It's not an "oh well, it happens" ... "but the dems are ...". Who gives a fuck that they're dems. They're U.S. citizens who are just as against interference in their elections as Russians would be. If Republicans aren't, it may be because their candidate won.

Afa the election, Trump won because of the rigged system --that no one wants to change. Then he sets up a commission to find voter fraud, but they don't have meetings, and have yet to find evidence. Yep, the states don't just want to turn over their voting rolls to a few guys the prez installed. If there's anyone preoccupied with Russia, and the election, it's Trump. Otherwise, it'd be like water off a duck's back.

The Russia investigation started before the election --even Trump said that his building was wiretapped (Ok, it wasn't wire; it was not about him). And, at least one of those investigated have been charged. I say, relax, DT. Nothing's gonna happen. We won't learn that you're immoral or disinterested in the law. There's no basement
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Re: Trump Directed Flynn to make contact with the Russians

Postby Rhen on Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:23 pm

whole thing is a sham. shame on the FBI for being biased as hell. No confidence.
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