UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Steve James on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:16 pm

My point was simply that posting about it to make the reader angry or upset at China is too roundabout. The things you mention that aren't discussed concerning the current government should be the issue, especially if there's some desired reaction other than anger or outrage. That's the thing. It's possible to make an argument against any enemy by merely telling a story. For ex., it doesn't really matter whether it was 10k people killed or 20k or 8k, the number is irrelevant to the purpose. Remember that the most striking image from Tianamen Square was the lone student standing in front of the tank. If the tank driver had run the student down, would people feel that the PRC was more or less repressive? I.e., it only takes one story to incite hatred.

Besides, which is worse, the PRNK, the PRC, Russia, Myanmar? But, on another note, if the PRC killing 10k should make me feel a certain way about them, how should I feel about nazis? (Btw, not Germans).
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:10 pm

I think most things from the past should be forgotten or properly contextualized for understanding their present relevance, but its' difficult to do so with events that never had any proper accounting by the same government that is still in power that continues to suppress information about that event.

There is some bad news related to the past that is worthy of discussion. And BTW, the PRC is the worst in terms of body count and also the fact they've remained in power, whereas other atrocious governments, such as the USSR, NAZI Germany, communist East Germany, and Cambodia (the Khymer Rouge could only have succeeded in the murder of approx. 20% of their own population in four years with the full support of the PRC) have had transitions that revealed many of the previous government's crimes against humanity. The PRC's crimes continue, backed primarily by the largess of multi-national corporations of Western nations, who found a government always willing to sacrifice its own people for enough economic progress to keep itself in power.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:25 pm

Michael wrote:If you want to take up this topic or any of the others you've mentioned, go ahead and make an argument in the correct place, if you are able, that's how discussion forums work.

But since your previous comment had nothing to do with Tiananmen and was a non sequitur about why do you live in China if you don't like it then I don't expect that you have anything more to say other than this snarky nonsense and passive aggressive insults.

Is that your mental speed there, Trick? I think probably so.

Yes yes i understand you want the final say over someone like me and you will surely have it, I just chime in once more.........About the Tianamen incident I know nothing more than was reported in the (western) media at the time. Although I do believe that you believe you have factual knowledge about the topic but I would say your "facts" steam from rumors, speculations and theories. You say you have taken part of somewhat widespread videos that confirm your believes, for sure these videos must have come into western medias possession long time ago? but have never seen any of them,I guess I'm not an insider..... I do not believe any foreigner witnessed any so called massacre at the time, embassy personnel where most probably advised by their respectively government to stay put at their embassies, now I don't know but I suspect the embassy area were located at the same as today's location and that's quite a distance from the square, what the embassy personnel might have witnessed would probably have been an increased security activity around the embassy area.....For reporters staying in Beijing at the time they probably stayed at the Beijing hotel which is very near the Tianamem, but if the situation got really heated they had probably in good time been relocated to a more secure area...of course this is just me speculating, but I dare to say your "facts" are also just speculating........What are you going to do with your "knowledge" about this topic, what's the point of bringing it up the way you bring it up. You say the PRC is the worst yet you choose to live here, one could say it's quite a mystery but actually I think it's not, I actually think you are living a quite nice life here in China as many other expatriates here does that's why you stay?....... Now Mr,Michael I which you a Happier expat New Year here in China....and we are able to celebrate new year two times here, that's cool.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:54 am

Dr. Fish posted some of the videos I'm referring to. As I mentioned, they are widely available on youtube. If you're interested, you can check for yourself. It is to be expected that a large conflict involving thousands of people will be revealed somewhat more fully in time, but also distorted by all the parties involved over time. Since there is no trustworthy authority to make any investigation, it will always be a very controversial topic.

Trip, you are basically hallucinating about what you think I've said here, probably because you don't like things I've said elsewhere in the forum recently, which you stated, and these biases are also part of your hallucinations. For example, nowhere in this thread have I claimed facts or special knowledge about controversial topics relating to Tiananmen, precisely because I know it is a very controversial and complex topic. I intentionally presented this info. about the cable as neutrally as I could in the beginning of the thread with some opinions I have from many years of talking to people inside the PRC about the event that is the subject of the cable, and later I spoke about my other opinions with Steve only because he asked directly.

Another part of your hallucination comes from this fixation that you have about why I live in China if it's so bad. This is a nonsensical non sequitur, unless you think it is some kind of evidence that the PRC govt can not be as bad as I claim, or I and other expats wouldn't be here. Your lack of basic understanding of the obviousness that dangerous events can occur in relative close proximity to someone without their knowledge, and therefore without their attention to the associated risks, should be made clear to you by normal experiences in life, or simple historical examples. Most people in NAZI Germany say they were unaware of the death camps, including those in close proximity. Most people in the USSR were unaware of the Gulag Archipelago or its horrors written by Solzhenitzen. Most Americans are blissfully unaware of the size of its prison system and the extensive use of torture by their government worldwide, probably because they don't think they are at risk for such treatment.

People who somehow never heard about the NSA, William Binney, John Kirakou and other whistleblowers were unaware of the risks of using social media until Edward Snowden revealed this in a spectacular way. However many people were aware of those risks before Snowden's reveal. This is an example of varying awareness of objective risks that were not revealed by the authority that could investigate them, but were revealed by a controversial figure using illegal means to do so against a government trying to cover up its own illegal activities. This scenario is common.

Do you not understand that objective risks to one's safety can exist without one being aware of them? Do you not understand that large governments routinely target certain people or groups and create risks for them that do not affect other groups, and that members of at-risk groups and non-risk groups can simultaneously be aware or unaware of these risks to varying degrees, and this awareness can change momentarily throughout time and location for the various groups within the jurisdiction of those countries, all while other groups inside or outside of that government's jurisdiction also have varying levels of changing awareness of the risks?

This means that a group of people in the PRC who are Chinese citizens, such as a religious group, could be at high risk and be aware, while expats could be at zero risk or near-zero risk for the danger experienced by that group, while some of those expats have varying levels of awareness of this risk and most other expats are completely unaware of those risks to that particular citizen group for that particular risk, all while the same variables apply to other citizen and expat groups for a large number of risk scenarios posed by a government such as the PRC?

The upshot of all of this is that your and other people's simple-minded comments that I should leave the PRC if I don't like it, or that I wouldn't be here if there were any risks that are related to the events described in this thread or the other situations I've talked about, are completely irrelevant to the topic. It is just as absurd as saying that someone who complains about police brutality in New York City, but who lives in New York City, is a hypocrite because if there were truly police brutality in New York City as bad as they claim, they would not live there, while also implying anyone else who complains about it would need to change their geographic location before lodging a complaint. Please try and understand how ridiculous this is to say: America, love it or leave it. China, love it or leave it. You are saying basically the same thing.

Hope you have a great New Year party tonight and that you get moved up a few notches on the brain transplant recipient waiting list. :P
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Bao on Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:07 am

Do you not understand that objective risks to one's safety can exist without one being aware of them? Do you not understand that large governments routinely target certain people or groups and create risks for them that do not affect other groups, and that members of at-risk groups and non-risk groups can simultaneously be aware or unaware of these risks to varying degrees, and this awareness can change momentarily throughout time and location for the various groups within the jurisdiction of those countries, all while other groups inside or outside of that government's jurisdiction also have varying levels of changing awareness of the risks?

This means that a group of people in the PRC who are Chinese citizens, such as a religious group, could be at high risk and be aware, while expats could be at zero risk or near-zero risk for the danger experienced by that group, while some of those expats have varying levels of awareness of this risk and most other expats are completely unaware of those risks to that particular citizen group for that particular risk, all while the same variables apply to other citizen and expat groups for a large number of risk scenarios posed by a government such as the PRC?


Sure there are problems, but I can't see why demonising China would lead to anything good.

There was a huge demonstration in Shanghai last year (or maybe the year before that, can't remember exactly), the big streets were completely filled with people, many older people especially. It was about the governments plan the weaken the pension and retirement. It went completely peacefully and in the end, the local government listened to the people. So the people's will was listened at and respected. There are many demonstrations around China every year, bigger and smaller. The very most of them are peaceful. Today, you can speak freely about the government. All you should not do is trying to gather people to throw off the government. If you don't, you'll be fine. China still has a lot of problems, there is no democratic thinking or any thinking about equality. Resources are distributed very uneven. But still, some things are going in the right direction.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:24 am

Bao, my friend, what you said is true and that's the interpretation of China you've chosen, and probably the same for Trip. In fact, there were Shanghai maglev protests in 2008 that were not prevented by the police initially, nor were the Jasmine "Revolution protests" of 2011 brutally crushed in Shanghai or Beijing, but many foreigners consider Shanghai to not even be part of China, lol.

Perhaps I focus too much on some of the problems in China, such as the arrest, detention, and long-term torture of the July 2015 human rights lawyers, who were not speaking freely to throw off the government, but were pleading to the government for the rights of its citizens to speak freely against transgressions on their rights. There is also the arrest, detention and denial of medical care of the Nobel Prize winning Chinese author who recently died...and I could go on forever with actual cases of torture and murder by the CPC happening in the present, but that's my interpretation of China, supported by evidence and irrefutable facts.

Let use not forget the arrest, torture and forced public confession on Chinese state TV of the Swedish NGO human rights worker, as well as the torture of his local girlfriend when they were both captive. And while we're at it, there is the rendition and false imprisonment of a naturalized Swedish citizen, abducted by Chinese police in Thailand and dragged back to the PRC for imprisonment, no doubt torture and a forced TV confession to a ridiculous crime of some ten years prior to his arrest, all in order to prevent his publishing gossip about Xi Jinping in a Hong Kong book store.

Do I demonize China? How could I after living here for 12 years? Expats are accused of this every time they, for the purpose of finding solutions to problems, criticize the most outrageous abuses and crimes against the citizens of China, for whom expats generally have a much, much greater, and much more idealistic appreciation for its people and culture of China than its own citizens have of their own countrymen, including those who are abused. The government here is so outrageously abusive that most Chinese really have nothing but fear and mistrust of each other, and that is on a good day.

I agree that some things are going in the right direction, but overall, I do not think so.
Last edited by Michael on Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Bao on Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:11 pm

Dear Michael, I fully understand your view and if there is something that I disagree with, I know that you have your own reasons and that you probably know more about certain aspects of the picture. Just a couple of things. When we practiced Tai Chi outside in the summers, my teacher used to point at the clear part of the sky. He laughed and said:”Look at this direction, don’t care about the other direction,” i.e. don’t look at the part of the sky that is grey and says that it’s going to rain. I haven’t chosen to believe in any picture of China. I understand that there are very different aspect to look at. I know they are there, but I prefer to look at the part of the sky that is clear and blue. In fact, the situation is all too complex to discuss properly on this kind of forum. I just don’t want to judge certain things without any proofs or without being able to back up things. Speculation is IMO unnecessary. But I do agree that there’s a complete disregard for humanity, human life and human rights. I could bring up a few terrible things, how innocent people probably, but only probably, have been treated like game pieces and become victims in a political game the last five or ten years. There are a lot of things we could discuss and speculate about. But why? To what gain? I am tired of all bad things going on everywhere. I don’t want to spend any of my time on negativity or hate, or to speculate about what have happened or if certain things going on is true or not. IMHO it’s unnecessary. I prefer to look at the positive things and hope for the best for the Chinese people. There are absolutely wonderful people there. I have met the most positive, generous and unselfish people as well as extremely intelligent and learned. This is the China I believe in and the China that I chose to look at. ;)
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:50 pm

Today I learned that umbrella salesmen are actually rain demonizers. :-* :P :D ;)
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:50 pm

Michael wrote:Today I learned that umbrella salesmen are actually rain demonizers. :-* :P :D ;)

Then you only learned half way, they use them brellas when it's sunny too
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:24 pm

Parasols are still in vogue, that's for sure.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:35 pm

'Don’t step out of line': Confidential report reveals how Chinese officials harass activists in Canada

This has been going on for a long time. The CPC will harass, threaten, detain, imprison and kidnap relatives of ethnic Chinese people who are living, traveling or studying abroad, but speak about problems in the PRC. If you find this difficult to believe, kidnapping relatives is not unprecedented in the mainland and it is also former Stalinist policy practiced in N. Korea today. A few years ago, just a couple of hours from where I live, the local county government set a quota for the sterilization of 10,000 people that month in order to enforce the one-child policy in a part of China that had not been following that law very well.

The government has all the records of families who've already had children and who've been sterilized, so if you had a kid but didn't get snipped or had your tubes tied, or both, the cops kidnapped your parents, wife, brother, whoever and held them in a warehouse, then rang you up and directed you to a nearby hospital for your doctor's appointment, after which your 60-something mom and/or dad would be released. They did this to thousands of people at the drop of a hat in Puning County, Guangdong back in 2010. I have many students and colleagues from that area, none of them have heard about it or other major events from that area as its one of the epicenters of riots and at least one govt massacre in recent years. This is usually the article I show foreigners whose rose-colored glasses have already begun to lose their tint and ask questions on their own. This stuff is so prevalent here that if you don't ask, it means you don't want to know; that's how the locals get through the day.

one of many articles that were published at the time wrote:Mr Zhang said: “This morning my wife called me and said they were forcing her to be sterilised today. She pleaded with the clinic to wait because she has her period. But they would not wait a single day. I called and begged them but they said no. So I have rushed back. I am satisfied because I have two sons.”

Thousands of others have refused to submit and officials are continuing to detain relatives, including elderly parents, to force them to submit to surgery. Those in detention are required to listen to lectures on the rules limiting the size of families.

On April 10 The Southern Countryside Daily reported on about 100 people, mostly elderly, packed into a damp 200sq m (2,150sq ft) room at a township family planning centre. The newspaper said: “There were some mats on the floor but the room was too small for all people to lie down and sleep, so the young ones had to stand or squat. Owing to the lack of quilts, many cuddled up to fight the cold.”
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby bailewen on Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:26 am

nowhere near that number killed. I used to have a friend a few years back who was there. (we lost touch).

A little digging will turn up a number of articles showing how ridiculously irresponsible that article was. There was an estimate of about 10k "injured", not killed. At some point, 10k killed just became more viral.

That sort of exaggeration destroys the credibility of the real claims.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:41 am

What number is more accurate? Did your friend think he had an idea or just was confident it wasn't near that high?
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:45 am

What changes if it were 1K killed, not 10K?
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:51 am

You made this point before and I agree. I don't think much changes between those two numbers, still a large scale massacre that was covered up.
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