UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby jimmy on Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:05 pm

mother fucking fish...
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Strange on Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:43 am

wait till you guys get into what happened to the australian aborigines
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Interloper on Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:48 am

Ken, my comment was solely in regards to the events at Tienanmin Square, as the title of this thread states "...10K killed at Tienanmin Square," and I was recalling our organization's eyewitness reports directly from the square itself.
Interestingly, the Chinese authorities made no effort to censure any of our groups who were in China -- not just in Beijing, but also in Chengdu-- at the time.
The media blackout was another thing altogether, though.
Last edited by Interloper on Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:32 am

Just a general response to anyone here who is dubious of the 10K killed claim.

What number of dead at Tiananmen does the PRC acknowledge?

Based on your information, what number do you think were killed?

What is the numerical point where the number becomes too high to believe?

PRC efforts at covering up this event continue to this day, so if it were a small number, why would it need to be hidden? Considering many hooligans were executed immediately after for killing soldiers, why couldn't other casualties be acknowledged? "Oh, the soldiers had to fire their weapons at the hooligans throwing molotov cocktails at the troops and yes, unfortunately, a few students were caught in the crossfire."

How does the PRC handle massacres perpetrated by themselves? What's their standard operating procedure? What was the most recent large scale government massacre that they were unable to totally hide and how did they deal with it afterwards, particularly in regards to how they literally hid the bodies?

What is your basis for speculating about the PRC and what they actually do as a matter of course in dealing with social problems, dissidents, troublemakers, protestors, etc?
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:12 am

Michael wrote:What number of dead at Tiananmen does the PRC acknowledge?


What I know they acknowledge 1000 dead. What they say though, is that most of these death happened far way from the square and were a few local incidents when people tried to stop the military from entering the city. (The Beijing military refused to participate. The troops were gathered from outside of the city) In this figure, there are both soldiers and civilians, but very few students as the civilians were mostly common workers.

One must realise that the "tiananmen massacre" was not something that happened right at the tiananmen square and it was not only about students. It was a revolt that had spread through the whole country.

Based on your information, what number do you think were killed?


The figure I've always heard since the incident is about one thousand. I have no idea about what is true. But 10K seems a bit far fetched, never heard that kind of numbers.

What is the numerical point where the number becomes too high to believe?


By the first, from number one of course. One dead is too much.

so if it were a small number, why would it need to be hidden?


They don't try hide it. They blame the students for attacking poor soldiers. For most of Chinese people today, the students were the bad guys and the soldiers were the victims. That was how it was reported originally in China and that is how they continue to portray the incident.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:48 pm

Michael wrote:Just a general response to anyone here who is dubious of the 10K killed claim.

What number of dead at Tiananmen does the PRC acknowledge?

Based on your information, what number do you think were killed?

What is the numerical point where the number becomes too high to believe?

PRC efforts at covering up this event continue to this day, so if it were a small number, why would it need to be hidden? Considering many hooligans were executed immediately after for killing soldiers, why couldn't other casualties be acknowledged? "Oh, the soldiers had to fire their weapons at the hooligans throwing molotov cocktails at the troops and yes, unfortunately, a few students were caught in the crossfire."

How does the PRC handle massacres perpetrated by themselves? What's their standard operating procedure? What was the most recent large scale government massacre that they were unable to totally hide and how did they deal with it afterwards, particularly in regards to how they literally hid the bodies?

What is your basis for speculating about the PRC and what they actually do as a matter of course in dealing with social problems, dissidents, troublemakers, protestors, etc?

You live in China why don't you ask around among the locals. Wonder why you came to China since you seem to not like it here.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby kenneth fish on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:35 am

The "Tian An Men Shi Jian" or "Tian An Men Incident" does indeed refer to the uprising and protests that spread throughout the country. As I stated above, many cities were involved - and troops and People's Armed Police were used to quell what was seen as a potential civil war. Civilians were not the only parties involved - when the 27th Army was brought into play against the students in Beijing, the Air Force Southern Command (Guangzhou) mobilized aircraft in an effort to bring support to the civilian population of Beijing. The report that I referred to above also lists casualty estimates by city - the total number is above 10,000.

It bears remembering that in 1989 there were no (or very few) cell phones, no digital video recorders, no internet. The record that we do have is based on hand held video taken by courageous locals and foreign news teams, as well as the records of embassy and intelligence personnel from several countries (Japan, the U.S., Germany, Swiss, and U.K.). It should also be pointed out that this was not the first (or the last) mass uprising that was put down violently in China. When I was in China in 1980 and 1981 there were entire regions that were not open to foreign travel (and only allowed limited travel for locals) due to unrest (Shandong, Fujian, and Guizhou were primary among them). I recall being in Guiyang and seeing walls pockmarked with bullet holes - some of which were from battles fought during the Cultural Revolution, when rival troops and civilian gangs faced off, but other damage was more recent.

How many people can a government kill when the eyes of the world are not watching? Chinese estimates for the numbers that perished during the Cultural Revolution are near the 30 million mark. And when the world is watching? Look at the beginnings of the war in Syria - a government that does not care what the outside world thinks will employ troops to kill without hesitation.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:26 pm

kenneth fish wrote:The "Tian An Men Shi Jian" or "Tian An Men Incident" does indeed refer to the uprising and protests that spread throughout the country. As I stated above, many cities were involved - and troops and People's Armed Police were used to quell what was seen as a potential civil war. When I was in China in 1980 and 1981 there were entire regions that were not open to foreign travel (and only allowed limited travel for locals) due to unrest (Shandong, Fujian, and Guizhou were primary among them). I recall being in Guiyang and seeing walls pockmarked with bullet holes - some of which were from battles fought during the Cultural Revolution, when rival troops and civilian gangs faced off, but other damage was more recent.

How many people can a government kill when the eyes of the world are not watching? Chinese estimates for the numbers that perished during the Cultural Revolution are near the 30 million mark. And when the world is watching? Look at the beginnings of the war in Syria - a government that does not care what the outside world thinks will employ troops to kill without hesitation.

If regions were not open to foreign travels and only allowed limited travels for locals how do we know these regions were restricted due to unrest? But if there in fact were unrest in those regions then was it not a good thing they kept people( foreigners)out of those regions for safety? When I moved to China some (big)areas were closed( but in later years have opened up a bit)to public due to national security but this is of course common in all countries, just usually those areas are bigger in bigger countries, even in the cities there are such areas, my then to be wife lived in a restricted army area smack in the middle of Beijing........About bullet holes in the walls I have no idea how to age mark such, but the city must have been safe enough to have let foreigners to travel there. It is not that common in China as in the west with "stay" guns circling among criminals but there are.........About the "civil war"in Syria it could be discussed if it really is a civil war.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:19 am

Trick wrote:
Michael wrote:Just a general response to anyone here who is dubious of the 10K killed claim.

What number of dead at Tiananmen does the PRC acknowledge?

Based on your information, what number do you think were killed?

What is the numerical point where the number becomes too high to believe?

PRC efforts at covering up this event continue to this day, so if it were a small number, why would it need to be hidden? Considering many hooligans were executed immediately after for killing soldiers, why couldn't other casualties be acknowledged? "Oh, the soldiers had to fire their weapons at the hooligans throwing molotov cocktails at the troops and yes, unfortunately, a few students were caught in the crossfire."

How does the PRC handle massacres perpetrated by themselves? What's their standard operating procedure? What was the most recent large scale government massacre that they were unable to totally hide and how did they deal with it afterwards, particularly in regards to how they literally hid the bodies?

What is your basis for speculating about the PRC and what they actually do as a matter of course in dealing with social problems, dissidents, troublemakers, protestors, etc?

You live in China why don't you ask around among the locals. Wonder why you came to China since you seem to not like it here.


Dude, those are rhetorical questions for people who have no basis for speculation. I know the answers because I live here and have looked into these topics more than the most people care to.
Last edited by Michael on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:48 am

Michael wrote:Dude, those are rhetorical questions for people who have no basis for speculation. I know the answers because I live here and have looked into these topics more than the most people care to.

Ok, you are saying with your research and in dept knowledge about this topic you have come to the same conclusion as the former UK Ambassador? Since you live in China I hope your sources of information on this topic is a notch better than your information sources about the "liberal left Antifa", rape and #metoo in the US...Good luck with you research
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Steve James on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:29 am

I think it's worthwhile to clarify that 10k people being killed "at" Tienamen Square is not the same as 10k people killed "during" the Tienamen uprising/period. It's hard to accept that 10k were killed at the Square, itself. But it's possible.

However, what are we expected that do with the information? Is it to make us feel negatively about the PRC?
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Trick wrote:
Michael wrote:Dude, those are rhetorical questions for people who have no basis for speculation. I know the answers because I live here and have looked into these topics more than the most people care to.

Ok, you are saying with your research and in dept knowledge about this topic you have come to the same conclusion as the former UK Ambassador? Since you live in China I hope your sources of information on this topic is a notch better than your information sources about the "liberal left Antifa", rape and #metoo in the US...Good luck with you research

If you want to take up this topic or any of the others you've mentioned, go ahead and make an argument in the correct place, if you are able, that's how discussion forums work.

But since your previous comment had nothing to do with Tiananmen and was a non sequitur about why do you live in China if you don't like it then I don't expect that you have anything more to say other than this snarky nonsense and passive aggressive insults.

Is that your mental speed there, Trick? I think probably so.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:52 pm

Steve James wrote:I think it's worthwhile to clarify that 10k people being killed "at" Tienamen Square is not the same as 10k people killed "during" the Tienamen uprising/period. It's hard to accept that 10k were killed at the Square, itself. But it's possible.

The massacre was widely reported and also filmed in and around the square, going into the adjoining neighborhoods, which still have visible bullet holes according to recent reports. I have not seen video of many things described in the UK cable, but based on the widely available videos I have seen, including those posted by Ken, and the reports, it is very easy for me to believe that 10,000 or more were killed that night in Beijing.

However, what are we expected that do with the information? Is it to make us feel negatively about the PRC?

Yes, I posted this news in order to increase awareness that the PRC is a murderous government. The title and content of the thread make that obvious. What is also obvious is that many people on this forum have connections to China and would be interested in this news and also might want to discuss it, or possibly be turned off by it and could easily avoid it from the title.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Steve James on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:00 pm

it is very easy for me to believe that 10,000 or more were killed that night in Beijing.


Ok, then the events that happened in other regions just add to the total. I don't know. I was an adult at the time, but I wasn't in the area and only got what was available in the media --which was not positive toward the PRC at all, but wasn't measured in numbers. It was 1989. No one was really singing China's praises then.

Yes, I posted this news in order to increase awareness that the PRC is a murderous government. The title and content of the thread make that obvious.


And that's exactly why it doesn't move me at all. The only purpose is provocation in order to justify or support views that have little to do with the PRC today. If you want to talk about current atrocities committed by the PRC, go ahead. It's not necessary to bring up what happened 30 years ago. Shucks, the Cultural Revolution was probably worse.

Well, my question was, if true, what do you want us to do with the information --other than just say "those nasty PRC people"?

Anyway, there are things happening much closer to home in time and space; but, they are often denied.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:47 pm

Steve James wrote:
Michael wrote:Yes, I posted this news in order to increase awareness that the PRC is a murderous government. The title and content of the thread make that obvious.


And that's exactly why it doesn't move me at all. The only purpose is provocation in order to justify or support views that have little to do with the PRC today. If you want to talk about current atrocities committed by the PRC, go ahead. It's not necessary to bring up what happened 30 years ago. Shucks, the Cultural Revolution was probably worse.

Well, my question was, if true, what do you want us to do with the information --other than just say "those nasty PRC people"?

Anyway, there are things happening much closer to home in time and space; but, they are often denied.

The negative public relations backlash to the PRC from the Tiananmen massacre was a lesson well-learned and this is part of why I asked how familiar people are with more recent massacres. If you're not looking closely at social and political events in China, you are probably not aware of more recent massacres, which I don't feel it's advisable for me to discuss the particulars about online because there have been two credible reports in the past year of foreigners who have been targeted by the government because of their discussion on Western social media of disharmonious topics regarding China.

One of them was a former teacher in China who was arrested some years after leaving the PRC while transiting through the Beijing airport and, according to him, was accosted by plainclothes police, who then claimed he damaged a computer while he was trying to make his connecting flight and sent to detention for two weeks. They told him that his activity on Facebook was "not being a friend to China." See Bobby Silby and archive.

Another is a Canadian video blogger in a city close to Guangzhou who got some heat for making a stupid video of himself and an American racing their motorbikes through town. He says that whenever he enters China he gets pulled aside and given the third degree and is part of the reason he just left and moved to Taiwan. That's a dude named Prozzie and I know the guy with whom he was racing. "Was I Forced to Leave China?"

I also don't think it's generally understood, even by many of the foreigners who live in China, dazzled as they are by the remarkable growth of the cities where they live, that this is an authoritarian government that spends tremendous resources to maintain internal order and external image. They have a special police force estimated at 800,000 who put down hundreds of daily "mass events" (protests and riots of from tens of people to hundreds and thousands); they completely sanitize and control their social media so that as few as possible "disharmonious" stories are talked about; and they have become quite adept, with the help of Western consultants who built their information infrastructure, at preventing stories of massacres getting to the Chinese public or to the outside world.

Eight years ago they shut down the borders, telephone and data networks of an entire province while they massacred about a thousand of its disharmonious inhabitants; it's difficult to get accurate numbers. One of my students was traveling and got trapped there and, because it was impossible to make international phone calls for about 3 months, or to leave the province without permission, she called me so I could transfer information to her husband, who was outside the country at the time. If you know the name of the city, province, specific topic, etc., please don't mention it in this thread, thanks.

Some of those stories are occasionally revealed in Chinese media, usually for just a few minutes online before they're sent to the memory hole, and sometimes the stories are revealed by media operating outside China with sources inside, such as Radio Free Asia, which broke a story two years ago of an Islamic terrorist massacre that murdered over 50 miners. PRC denied it for months, then finally admitted it and eventually made their own, uhm, tremendous, public relations video about their revenge massacre of the terrorists. Was killing the miners a terrorist massacre or a revenge for previous government massacres?

So, the Tiananmen massacre is both historically relevant and also a reminder that a government that has killed somewhere between 60-100 million of its own people is not going to simply stop murdering, and they haven't. They continue to do so in various forms and they have an elaborate network of information control, including indoctrination and intimidation of Chinese students studying abroad, who might need to be encouraged not to speak openly about Tiananmen or any other disharmonious topic. Other students are recruited to spy and report on any students discussing these topics and this is common knowledge among them; they know to keep their mouths shut. So-called "evil uncles" are also there to monitor the students and keep everything harmonious.

When dealing with an authoritarian government like this, one that has achieved a significant amount of legitimacy since their days of open slaughter were scaled back a bit, Tiananmen is a relevant and current touchstone that is memorialized every year on May 35 in Hong Kong by hundreds of thousands of people who wish to resist coming under greater control by the mainland government.
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