waves

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Re: waves

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Image

showing constructive and destructive wave interference.

"going up seems higher and higher, going down down seems lower and lower,
he tries to retreat but finds the distance to short, he tries to advance but it seems longer"

which could be taken to mean, phase, and frequency. Which I' noted as a way of looking
at what I first experienced many yrs back in looking for my own way of understanding what
I was feeling reacting to.

some talk of yin/yang and the transitioning between them. Consider a body standing is at the equilibrium position.

Image
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Re: waves

Postby windwalker on Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:44 pm

marvin8 wrote:This happened to appear in my video list. You've posted videos from David Ross before. Here's a video he posted, which might fit in here. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vytRexjWgHY


totally agree which is why I dont practice push hands as is commonly practiced,
nor follow the taiji choreography as is commonly played. Feeling that both have been changed
do to different focuses. This is just my own path others may find or have found different.. I own what I do...freedom

I still use the what might be called the taiji engine in my work...allowing me freedom to express "it" in ways
I've tested and used.

I thought the wave post might be an interesting topic. meant to present "a" view point not a defining one.
Was curious as to how others would view the clip assuming for the sake of discussion that was was shown
was in fact "real" in the sense that those in the demo were not faking, ect....

Often people stop at just achieving some minor skill in ability losing sight of applying it feeling they can do
so under all conditions...IMO a bad mistake :P which is why one should be clear about the what and why of
their practice.
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Re: waves

Postby Trick on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 pm

Gravity, bent space? Maybe a "Qi cultivator" can at will make his stored Qi heavier/densed and lighter intantainiously thus causing ripples/waves in his/her immediate spacetime surrounding making individuals with "regular Qi levels" within this surrounding to stumble, fall or even hopping?..... Do I believe in these kind of theories, well there are mathematical formulas that prove gravity and such but not so for the concept of Qi so that is questionable. Althought my own practice is not (consciously) geared toward this stuff, butI do find it interesting.
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Re: waves

Postby middleway on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:32 am

This happened to appear in my video list. You've posted videos from David Ross before. Here's a video he posted, which might fit in here. :)


Beautiful example.

Was curious as to how others would view the clip assuming for the sake of discussion that was was shown was in fact "real" in the sense that those in the demo were not faking, ect....


That is the fundimental problem here Windwalker. You first need to convince those observing, who have been involved in fighting both on the street and in competition that what we are seeing is "real" in any way, specifically that it related to wave mechanics.

When something defies all known ways that human bodies interact or react, when there are a miriad of videos online calling out 'masters' with these aparant skills and them failing, when the methods shown dont seem to relate to anything to do with 'health practices' or 'martial arts' .... we need something more than 'Lets just pretend it is real'.

Only when you have achieved that, can a discussion be had of any merit with experienced people.

There is a very simple way to do this. It really is extremely simple.

It means I can do this with most of those I've met for the fist time. In a demo setting, and with those trying not to allow me to do it in other settings.


Go to a local sport martial arts gym, san da, bjj, kickboxing, karate, anything where they actually spar. And film it working on them ... not in sparring, just see if it will work in the same way it does for people in the know.

THIS would completely change the conversations you are trying to create when posting these clips, people would be more convinced and would happily look into the 'whys' with you.

As it stands you will never get a discssion from rational martial artists, no matter how much you quote quantum mechanics, or mechanical processes, or studies by Tai Chi practitioner scientists. You need to demonstate that things like wave mechanics actually relate to what you are showing. As it stands there is no evidence that it does.

Finally, looking at the channel of that person creating the wave we see push hands like this. There is NO evidence of taking the centre at touch, of wave mechanics at work, or any other spooky stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noAs3Nbf6DM


For the record i actually like this push hands MUCH more than the opening video, it is much more honest.

Thanks
Chris.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
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Re: waves

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:20 am

middleway wrote:That is the fundimental problem here Windwalker. You first need to convince those observing, who have been involved in fighting both on the street and in competition that what we are seeing is "real" in any way, specifically that it related to wave mechanics.

ha got dantain, no I don't need to convince anyone here. There are even some here who know me and understand that what I've mentioned is something I've been working on, with for a while...convince some one hardly. :P

When something defies all known ways that human bodies interact or react, when there are a miriad of videos online calling out 'masters' with these aparant skills and them failing, when the methods shown dont seem to relate to anything to do with 'health practices' or 'martial arts' .... we need something more than 'Lets just pretend it is real'.

I should point out that if it really defied all known ways it couldn't be done..

Only when you have achieved that, can a discussion be had of any merit with experienced people.

There is a very simple way to do this. It really is extremely simple.

Apparently not so experienced, yes it is simple.

It means I can do this with most of those I've met for the fist time. In a demo setting, and with those trying not to allow me to do it in other settings.


Go to a local sport martial arts gym, san da, bjj, kickboxing, karate, anything where they actually spar. And film it working on them ... not in sparring, just see if it will work in the same way it does for people in the know. The same could be said of CMA in gen, something that I've made believers of for those I've met in my own small way...In the 70s and surprisingly up until today not much has changed. Although there some teaches now modifying there systems or maybe updating them would be a better way of looking it, adapting it to the type of fighting done in the ring.

I am often confused by this request. Many of those people go to others who do this kind of work and stick around trying to figure it out.
For the record I have and do interact with others who practice other things,,,

Must be at that time of the month, so far on this site many talk about dantain, aiki, qi, ect no one asking for what your asking now with an example of it.... oh yes, many do tend to post clips of some shaking themselves claiming its dantain driven or what ever but no usage...Why is that?


THIS would completely change the conversations you are trying to create when posting these clips, people would be more convinced and would happily look into the 'whys' with you.

Or one could could think about what would be needed for it to be done, and then point out why it wasn't being done or illustrated in the clip

As it stands you will never get a discssion from rational martial artists, no matter how much you quote quantum mechanics, or mechanical processes, or studies by Tai Chi practitioner scientists. You need to demonstate that things like wave mechanics actually relate to what you are showing. As it stands there is no evidence that it does.

You should follow it with " that you agree with" what if others agree with what was posted but do not care to comment on it?

Finally, looking at the channel of that person creating the wave we see push hands like this. There is NO evidence of taking the centre at touch, of wave mechanics at work, or any other spooky stuff.

And this means

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noAs3Nbf6DM


For the record i actually like this push hands MUCH more than the opening video, it is much more honest.

ah yes,,,lets go down the list, bracing, leaning, no whole body power, colliding with the others force ect

Thanks
Chris.


likewise thanks...

Often with what is called IMA there are things that don't come across well on some clips,,,more so for those who've not had the opportunity to get some hands on. I do find it odd that people can talk about all kinds of things that they dont agree on but either can not do or have not felt...

expecting others to buy off on it,,,things like yi, qi, shen , dantain ect....all really unproven but more or less accepted because they "cant be proven" :P and yet each time when shown people lose their minds. When ever they do present clips of it in use, then the conversation starts to go to the lack of skill of the other person ect. its a lose, lose which is why it would seem that most will talk about it,,,but go nuts once its shown what they'er talking about in use.
its funny and very predictable :P

You've manged to conflate a couple of things.

developing a skill
acquiring a skill
and usage of the skill

each very separate, with not many really reaching the usage part .

what was shown in the clip was along the lines of development and understanding,
using a demo to illustrate it.

yep pretty simple.... happy yr of the dog.... ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: waves

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:47 am

https://martialbody.thinkific.com/cours ... oundations

do you feel in this demo that the person is "straight" that he is extending out from the center
and what is called the ming men is open.
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Re: waves

Postby middleway on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:07 am

ha got dantain, no I don't need to convince anyone here. There are even some here who know me and understand that what I've mentioned is something I've been working on, with for a while...convince some one hardly. :P


Yes thanks. For a fruitful conversation, convincing people to accept your first caveat for the discussion (that the work is real) is an requirement. Who cares what you are working on?! that is not the discussion. I am working on some things i find interesting but no one here should care, and i dont have any expectation of them to.

Must be at that time of the month, so far on this site many talk about dantain, aiki, qi, ect no one asking for what your asking now with an example of it.... oh yes, many do tend to post clips of some shaking themselves claiming its dantain drivening or what ever but no usage...Why is that?


Dont duck the question. Talking about skillsets and body methods is one thing, and many of the things you metion maintain merit on other threads.

But showing clips like the one you posted here, and many you have posted in the past, are outside of those discussions and into the realm of the extrmely strange and hard to believe on the bad evidence provided. So the burden of proof lies with you in that instance. You are, in fact, claiming that you can reliably demonstrate these methods happen and demonstrate them on people who are not in these arts or part of your group. The most well conditioned people, ready and used for interaction are sport fighters.

NOTE i did not say show usage, you made that jump, i said make it work on sport fighters.

Note in the video below the 'human stun gun' was taken to a BJJ school. He DIDNT roll, he DIDNT try to show usage, he DIDNT spar. He just tried to make his work happen. And it failed. This is the sort of thing i, and so many others are waiting to see ... an example where it does work.



Or one could could think about what would be needed for it to be done, and then point out why it wasn't being done or illustrated in the clip


I understand very well what would be needed for it to be done. Student conditioning i am waiting for a viable explination that trumps that very simple one.

You should follow it with " that you agree with" what if others agree with what was posted but do not care to comment on it?


Maybe, but i can only talk for myself and there are many other pragmatists on this board.

And this means
ah yes,,,lets go down the list, bracing, leaning, no whole body power, colliding with the others force ect


Yes it was very bad, BUT it was honest. That is the difference. What it means is that the teacher using the 'wave' you used as an example in your opening post, even if the effect is real, is not helped by the skill. That is VERY important.

Often with what is called IMA there are things that don't come across well on some clips,,,more so for those who've not had the opportunity to get some hands on. I do find it odd that people can talk about all kinds of things that they dont agree on but either can not do or have not felt...


Why do you find it odd? if i said on here i could fly to the moon and back and do it every night, would you wait to see if you could do it? Would you accept a fake video of me doing it? Or would your rational brain kick in and say ... hmmm something isnt right there.

I have told you repeatadly that i HAVE met people who claimed these skills. Who COULD make them work on their students but couldnt on me. I wont mention names but they are 2 high level practiioners from several. One person 'charged up' an opbject and the students flew away from the object whenever they walked near it! This is why i always call them out. I have not felt it, because it is something that only works on those conditined for it to work on them.

You may ask why i jumped back in and people may wonder why i am so intersted in calling this stuff out? Well, simply put, i think that this sort of conditionig is detrimental to all who chase it. In fact, i honestly believe it is dangerously for people engaging in it.

thanks.
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Re: waves

Postby middleway on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:09 am

https://martialbody.thinkific.com/cours ... oundations

do you feel in this demo that the person is "straight" that he is extending out from the center
and what is called the ming men is open.


That person is me. What are you asking? and what do you think you are watching? being "straight" has nothing to do with anything in that video or that course.
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Re: waves

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:27 am

middleway wrote:I have told you repeatadly that i HAVE met people who claimed these skills. Who COULD make them work on their students but couldnt on me. I wont mention names but they are 2 high level practiioners from several. One person 'charged up' an opbject and the students flew away from the object whenever they walked near it! This is why i always call them out. I have not felt it, because it is something that only works on those conditined for it to work on them.

You may ask why i jumped back in and people may wonder why i am so intersted in calling this stuff out? Well, simply put, i think that this sort of conditionig is detrimental to all who chase it. In fact, i honestly believe it is dangerously for people engaging in it.

thanks.


As I mentioned I've seen all if not most of the fail clips....They fail for a number of reasons.
They also work for the same reasons although not in the same way. I never quite get whats up with some of the teachers
but thats their thing not mine.

Its not about conditioning, it is about medium and what is actinging on what.
Considering the tone of this thread some things I have no reason to go into.

"Who COULD make them work on their students but couldnt on me" No need to mention names
As I've mentioned it has to do with the medium and what the teacher is trying to interact with...

Staying away from the chinese yi, qi, shen ect it would and should be explainable by physics for when it does work and also for when it fails in "demo" mode
how its used and why and why is another matter.

Nice web site btw.... ;)

totally agree with moving the demos out into a different way of looking at the interactions using physics as a way of viewing and explaining it.

"I have not felt it"

a key point, what it means is that your awareness is limited to applied pressure and those showing you did not attempt to use
a good moment to explore why they couldn't do it. If they did who knows it would have helped with the teachers understanding and maybe allow you
some idea of what they'er work on or with...

I get you point.....and in many aspect even agree with it but not in the way presented....I encounter many taiji teachers who feel that they are doing something when in fact they are not...Being straight is key..understanding what this means and why is very key...many who feel they are straight are not,,,
many dont understand the point of being straight...and what it means...

thanks for a good discussion,
liked your web sites approach and out lined practices.

some it I noted while in China,,,the crawling on the ground ect...they called it different things and
had a couple of different ways of doing
it...

later ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: waves

Postby middleway on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:32 am

As I mentioned I seen all if not most of the fail clips....They fail for a number of reasons.
They also work for the same reasons although not in the same way. I never quite get whats up with some of the teachers
but thats their thing not mine.

Its not about conditioning, it is about medium and what is actinging on what.
Considering the tone of this thread some thing I have no reason to go into.

"Who COULD make them work on their students but couldnt on me" No need to mention names
As I've mentioned it has to do with the medium and what the teacher is trying to interact with...

Staying away from the chinese yi, qi, shen ect it would and should be explainable by physics for when it does work and also for when it fails in "demo" mode
how its used and why and why is another matter.

Nice web site btw.... ;)

totally agree with moving the demos out into a different way of looking at the interactions using physics as a way of viewing and explaining it.

"I have not felt it"

a key point, what it means is that your awareness is limited to applied pressure and those showing you did not attempt to use
a good moment to explore why they couldn't do it. If they did who knows it would have helped with the teachers understanding and maybe allow you
some idea of what they'er work on or with...

I get you point.....and in many aspect even agree with it but not in the way presented....I encounter many taiji teachers who feel that they are doing something when in fact they are not...Being straight is key..understanding what this means and why is very key...many who feel they are straight are not,,,
many dont understand the point of being straight...and what it means...

thanks for a good discussion,
liked your web sites approach and out lined practices.

some it I noted while in China,,,the crawling on the ground ect...they called it different things and
had a couple of different ways of doing
it...

later ;)


Again thank you for the civil response. Nothing is ever personal, and who knows one day i could meet you or someone you know and get opportunity to have my mind changed. Something i am very open too.

thank you for the compliment on my site.

all the best.

chris.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

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Re: waves

Postby windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:39 am

Yes it was very bad, BUT it was honest. That is the difference. What it means is that the teacher using the 'wave' you used as an example in your opening post, even if the effect is real, is not helped by the skill. That is VERY important.


yes it is very important. also important to understand why.

The teacher is behind his wave ie a beat off his phase change.. so he ends up using his own normal force, or trying to lean in
trying to use his center. In short he can not change at the "contact point" he doesn't seem to understand what tangent force is or how its used, some call it yin/yang I use the word "zero point" and is late on other aspects in that setting...
what should happen is that they stop and examine why..

Instead he continues building bad habits that tend to become ingrained in this setting.. not good

your work looks good, best of luck with it.

later ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: waves

Postby Trick on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:51 pm

Before I logged in there was a post by Willie here? Or did I just imagine?
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Re: waves

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:37 am

Trick wrote:Before I logged in there was a post by Willie here? Or did I just imagine?

So? I already know the answer. plus that, I have my own theories on this subject
Last edited by willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: waves

Postby Finny on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:52 am

willie wrote:
Trick wrote:Before I logged in there was a post by Willie here? Or did I just imagine?

So? I already know the answer. plus that, I have my own theories on this subject


HAHA
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Re: waves

Postby willie on Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:57 am

Finny wrote:
willie wrote:
Trick wrote:Before I logged in there was a post by Willie here? Or did I just imagine?

So? I already know the answer. plus that, I have my own theories on this subject


HAHA
okay so I will repost it then just to make you happy. I volunteered for Windwalker to try his empty Force out on me but he is 3500 miles away. so I don't think that that's realistic, even though I need a vacation. It's going to be minus 12 degrees out today. So Southern California sounds quite inviting
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