dan tian

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dan tian

Postby windwalker on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:13 pm

Often people talk of the dan tian, moving or using it to power movements.
This site might give some a more detailed view point of whats being described



http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

THE LOWER DANTIAN AND KINESTHETIC AWARENESS
In addition to being the center of physical strength and the source of stamina, the Lower Dantian is also considered the "house" of physical (kinesthetic) feeling, communication and awareness. Kinesthetic communication is the level of awareness referred to as "the intuition of the physical body," and is stimulated by particular aspects of the subconscious. The subconscious mind picks up many signals from the environment that are not processed by the logical mind. The subconscious mind may react to these signals with spontaneous body movements, or with subtle but powerful emotional responses sometimes referred to as "gut feelings."

Image

Kinesthesia is defined as "the sensory experiences mediated by nervous elements within the muscles, tendons and joints, and stimulated by bodily movements and tensions characterized by movement." It is this kinetic state of awareness that allows the Chi Kung doctor to naturally feel the patient's internal resonant vibrations. When the doctors' body suddenly feels hot or cold, starts shaking or trembling, this may indicate that the subconscious mind is trying to communicate, and is resonating with the location and condition of the diseased areas within the patient's tissues.

Often, the feelings experienced in the Lower Dantian are very subtle. For this reason, Chi Kung doctors are trained to establish a heightened degree of awareness of their own body, and are thus able to pick up subtle variations and energetic shifts within themselves and others. When doctors collect energy in the Lower Dantian, an increased awareness and sensitivity naturally occurs. Cultivating this ability requires the practice of paying attention to the physical body (training kinesthetic awareness). A high level of awareness of the physical body, the surrounding environment, and the relationship between the two, is required in order to maximize kinesthetic communication. When physical awareness is increased, feeling and kinesthetic body movements happen naturally. These subtle senses allow Chi Kung doctors to feel, smell, or hear energetic phenomena as they are released from the patient's diseased tissues.


THE LOWER DANTIAN AND SCIENCE
The Lower Dantian's "Brain," is known in Western terms as the enteric (intestinal) nervous system. According to research conducted by Dr. Michael Gershon, a professor of anatomy and cellular biology at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in New York, the Lower Dantian sends and receives impulses, records experiences, and responds to emotions. Its nerve cells are bathed in and influenced by the same type of neurotransmitters that exist in the Brain.

The entire nervous system mirrors the body's central nervous system and is a network of 100 million neurons (more neurons than the spinal cord), neurotransmitters, and proteins that can act independently of the body's Brain and can send messages, learn, remember, and produce feelings.

Image

Dr. Gershon explains that major neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, glutamine, norepinephrine, nitric oxide, enkephalins (one type of natural opiate), and benzodiazepines (psychoactive chemicals that relieve anxiety) are active within the neural system of the lower abdominal area. The lower abdomen also has two dozen small Brain proteins called neuropeptides. Dr. Gershon's research provides modern scientific verification of what Eastern wisdom has taught for millennia; that centers of consciousness exist at places in the body apart from the organ of the Brain. The abdomen or Lower Dantian, is one of these major centers of awareness.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:12 am

It seems to be from a modern TCMA perspective. “The abdomen or Lower Dantian, is one of these major centers of awareness.”. The abdomen is not the lower dantian. What they mean here is what they write, it’s the the lower abdomen, maybe the Japanese term Hara should be more apopropriate from a martial arts perspective, but not the lower Dantian. TCMA theory is rather new and doesn’t recognize Neidan theory. The Dantian is a concept from daoist philosophy that has nothing to do with TCMA. It’s not an act point, it’s not a physical area you can translate into anything in western or Chinese medicine. The lower Dantian is not outside, not visible and it does not cover a large area. It’s a spot inside the lower abdomen you can feel through calmness, relaxation and meditation.

Well, interesting regardless...
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Re: dan tian

Postby Trick on Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:33 am

If I not misremember Hara is the term for the abdomen area, and Dantian would be Tanden or Seika Tanden in Japanese. But I could be wrong about that.
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Re: dan tian

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:08 am

This is the person who wrote up the articel

Professor Jerry Alan Johnson Ph.D., D.T.C.M., D.M.Q. (China), is one of the few internationally recognized non-Chinese Grand Masters, practicing doctors, and Director/Professors of Medical Chi Kung Therapy.
http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php


His web site https://www.daoistmagic.com/

Would those citing differences consider him a credible source

If not could you either cite or post links that would help to explain
view points posted....
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:04 am

Trick wrote:If I not misremember Hara is the term for the abdomen area,


Yes, that is what I mean. Better to use another term as it's not the Dantian that is meant in the article.
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:05 am

windwalker wrote:This is the person who wrote up the articel

Professor Jerry Alan Johnson Ph.D., D.T.C.M., D.M.Q. (China), is one of the few internationally recognized non-Chinese Grand Masters, practicing doctors, and Director/Professors of Medical Chi Kung Therapy.
http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php


His web site https://www.daoistmagic.com/

Would those citing differences consider him a credible source

If not could you either cite or post links that would help to explain
view points posted....


Medical Qigong is modern TCMA. They don't recognize Daoist Neidan theory.

This guy is highly confused, misguided and confuse everything together.
...He lives in another world.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: dan tian

Postby Trick on Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:56 am

windwalker wrote:This is the person who wrote up the articel

Professor Jerry Alan Johnson Ph.D., D.T.C.M., D.M.Q. (China), is one of the few internationally recognized non-Chinese Grand Masters, practicing doctors, and Director/Professors of Medical Chi Kung Therapy.
http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php


His web site https://www.daoistmagic.com/

Would those citing differences consider him a credible source

If not could you either cite or post links that would help to explain
view points posted....

Took a quick look at that webpage, i don't know why some complain about Mizner's stuff 8-)
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:50 pm

WW, you asked about sources. Here are a few. Again, the Dantian is a neidan concept. It has nothing to do with modern Qigong or TCM.



It creates a false illusion that it's possible to use Qigong-like exercises to get the results, described in Neidan books.
...there are no Qigong methods in Neidan, so nobody can fool other people and teach Qigong methods using Neidan terminology.
It's easy to be confused by classic texts, that is why it was said: "Impossible to find a teacher without understanding the books; Impossible to understand the books without a teacher".

Discussion about neidan vs qigong:
https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/32430- ... vs-qigong/


Neidan, however, is more than a technique, and the importance it gives to immaterial notions such as Nature and Existence (xing and ming), or inner Nature and individual qualities (xing and qing), shows that its focus is not the physical body. Various concepts and practices take on different meanings at different levels, from the physical to the spiritual and beyond this distinction. An example is the Mysterious Barrier (xuanguan), which according to different authors is located between the eyebrows, between the kidneys, in the gallbladder, in the navel, or elsewhere, while others say it has no precise location in the body. As Li Daochun (fl. 1288-92) remarks: "The Mysterious Barrier is the most mysterious and wondrous pivotal pass (jiguan). How can it have a fixed position? If you place it in the body (shen), this is not correct. If you separate it from the body and search for it outside the body, this is also not correct".

http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/view ... _body.html
On this page you have many translations from classical texts.


All forms of qigong exercises are not neidan. Here I find many masters making claims on the web including Daoist forums that their exercises will lead to enlightenment. Sadly these are ridiculous and false claims but many of their students do not think so. While qigong exercises can improve the health and increase the qi levels of students, neidan practice can do more than that.

Most forms of meditation are not neidan even if they happen to deal with breath control.

http://atouchofancientszhouyi.blogspot. ... eidan.html
I don’t agree with all of what this guy writes, but he make good points.

...
Also read this page:
http://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

...

.... IMO, it’s extremely revealing that a person like Allan Johnson who claims he has studied daoism has no clue about traditional daoist thought... But many people do similar mistakes and many believe that the dantian works with all kinds of qigong. In fact, Tai Chi and IMA has much more in common with neidan than most of practices called qigong.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: dan tian

Postby windwalker on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:46 pm

Thanks for the articles I will review them later. You have not really commented as to what you feel is wrong with the specific article about what is called a dan tian.

I felt the article laid out quite clearly three different ways of viewing what it was and a relationship to its uses.
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:09 am

windwalker wrote:. You have not really commented as to what you feel is wrong with the specific article about what is called a dan tian.


Thought it was clear. What he calls the dantian is not the dantian. He says that the lower abdomen is equal to the dantian. This is wrong. He also connects the dantian with modern medical qigong and qigong doctors. But TCMA is not interested in the concept of the dantian and don't use it.
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: dan tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:51 am

Bao wrote:
windwalker wrote:. You have not really commented as to what you feel is wrong with the specific article about what is called a dan tian.


Thought it was clear. What he calls the dantian is not the dantian. He says that the lower abdomen is equal to the dantian. This is wrong. He also connects the dantian with modern medical qigong and qigong doctors. But TCMA is not interested in the concept of the dantian and don't use it.


Not really but thanks for the response.

This is what he wrote

According to ancient Daoist energetic anatomy and physiology, humans have three important energy centers that store and emit energy similar to the same way a battery stores and emits energy. These three centers are called the Three Dantians. The Three Dantians are strategically positioned along the Taiji Pole in order to facilitate maximum energy transference.
http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php

You have cited TCM but have not provided any pertinent information other then you saying its so.
He mentions taiji pole, which is part of the inner alignment for some practices of taiji. Those that I know and I also use
whats called the taiji pole as part of the inner alignments.


ANATOMICAL LOCATION OF THE LOWER DANTIAN
The Lower Dantian is centered below the umbilicus, and inside the lower abdomen, forming a downward pointing triangle. Its boundaries are defined by the three lower chakra gates, described as follows: ect


Which where most that I know would say its located at with out citing a specific spot.

Bao wrote: It’s not an act point, it’s not a physical area you can translate into anything in western or Chinese medicine. The lower Dantian is not outside, not visible and it does not cover a large area. It’s a spot inside the lower abdomen you can feel through calmness, relaxation and meditation.


Just found it strange......of those I know they would tend to agree with he wrote, as do I... while describing it as a "spot" also works seems to me that it would be found or known about by western science.

regards

edited: read your sources. Interesting considering one of the sites used I also read and post on ;)
My point is that for much of what is posted or said about it, it does not lend it self as to being shown or able to use
in an IMA sense ie movement powered, or derived from, or anything else that's often attributed to having a developed dantian.
What he wrote seems to me from my POV quite clear...
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:54 am

ANATOMICAL LOCATION OF THE LOWER DANTIAN
The Lower Dantian is centered below the umbilicus, and inside the lower abdomen, forming a downward pointing triangle. Its boundaries are defined by the three lower chakra gates, described as follows: ect


In the OP, he says that the Dantian is the same as the abdomen and what he describes with the term lower dantian is the whole abdomen. That was what I was referring to.
So here he gives a completely different definition of the Dantian than in the OP. The description above here is also wrong. There is no definite position for dantian described in any of the classical texts. And there is no exact equivalent for the neidan concept in TCM. He has completely misunderstood the meaning of the Dantian.
And here, he also adds chakras to the mix. I sincerely dislike all this mixing from different disciplines. They are different philosophies and means different things.

In the same text he refers to medical qigong and describes neidan theory. He says that he is a professor of medical qigong, yet there is nothing about medical qigong even when he writes about it. He have no clue about what is meant with medical qigong.

You have cited TCM but have not provided any pertinent information other then you saying its so


I have no intention trying to convince anyone about anything. There are plenty of good texts about TCM and translations of old Neidan classics out there.

If I examine a book or a text or a homepage with articles and if I find a whole lot of contradictions everywhere, I will absolutely not use facts, links or articles trying to convince someone that the content is ridiculous. If you can see all of the contradictions and mistakes, you can see them. If you can not, then there is nothing more to discuss. I have said what I think about this “professor” and I have no intention to discuss anything further about him.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: dan tian

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:07 am

thanks for your reply,,,



This seems to follow what he wrote about....written by a friend of mine...

cheers

Dan Tian
“Dan” can be translated as “the medicine for longevity” or as “the Elixir.” “Tian” is the word for “Field.” It is believed that a person’s inner life energy, or Chi, originates from and is controlled by Dan Tian. There are three Dan Tians in a person’s body: Upper, Middle and Lower. Different meditations and martial arts styles may place them in different locations.

In our practice, the Upper Dan Tian is in the area of the Yin Tang point (Extra 1). This location is between the two eyebrows (See the above drawing). In meditation terms, this is also called Mei Jian (Between Eyebrows), or Xuan Guan (the Gate of Mysteriousness).

The Middle Dan Tian is at the area of the Shan Zhong (Ren 17) point. This location is midway between the two nipples (See the above drawing). The easiest place to focus on is the Xiphoid process area.

The Lower Dan Tian is at the area of the Qi Hai (Ren 6) point. This location is about one and a half inches below the navel (See above drawing). It is also called Shen Lu (the Sacred Furnace).

A very interesting fact is that all three Dan Tian mentioned here are located on the Golden Ratio sections of our body. Multiply 0.618 by the distance between your chin and the top of your head to find your Upper Dan Tian area. Multiply 0.618 by your torso length to find your Middle Dan Tian area and multiply 0.618 by your body height to find your Lower Dan Tian area.


Each Tai Chi movement you play should start from your Dan Tian which physically usually refers to the waist. At the very beginning of your play, you should sink your mind (Chi) down to the Lower Dan Dian, then begin your move while keeping focus on your movement. Your meditative mind and correct routine postures will stimulate your Chi's movement to achieve better health.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dan tian

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:18 am

Thanks, this text is better and more focused.

The longer quote above is a late TCM interpretation using acu points. IMO, it has no real place in tai chi. Also, TCM philosophy sometimes acknowledges the Dantian as a storing point for qi. Then turning it into an acu point doesn’t make sense. How can a common acu point store and refine qi? So from a Tai Chi perspective, IMO, it’s better to try to understand the neidan philosophy and keep it pure from later interpretations. Then we will better understand the goals and methods of the practice. IMHO of course. ;)
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Re: dan tian

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:32 am

Not well versed at all in classical texts of Daoism but as I recall as Bao says there is nothing written about Dantian and even lesser so on Taiji-poles and chakras....isn't there also some guys doing "daoist-yoga" too, I'm sure there is nothing about that in those classical text....people just invent as they go along.
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