Some powerful shit

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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:26 am

I think he is just having too much fun on that 10 grand computer they are letting him monkey about with at work. ;)
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby GrahamB on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:10 am

I am!



Sorry you "gun nuts" are all talking a language I don't understand, so I backed away - lol ;D

Basically, I don't think selling weapons of war to civilians without background checks is a very good idea.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:43 am

I don't think selling weapons of war to civilians without background checks is a very good idea.


Agreed.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:46 am

Actually, I think that's something that most Americans, and even gun owning Americans, believe.

There is another issue of what background checks entail. What about training? What about non-criminal issues? Mental illness? Where do you draw that line? Many countries have a ban on these kinds of weapons, which are designed to shoot people. That is unlikely to happen currently until there is a reinterpretation of the Second Amendment: which is very likely in the next couple of decades. The current one comes from only ten years ago or so.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:37 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:...these kinds of weapons, which are designed to shoot people...

The vast majority of guns are designed to shoot people, and those which are not are derived from designs for shooting people, and those which are not can still be used to shoot a target, and a target can become a person, so I'm trying to figure out the context of this. Can you elaborate or give me and example or something?
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:41 am

GrahamB wrote:Basically, I don't think selling weapons of war to civilians without background checks is a very good idea.

You need a special license for full auto and it's not easy or cheap to get, and you need a background check to buy any gun. Don't be scared to visit. :) Just sayin.

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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:35 am

Designed to kill people, especially in America. Ask people to answer why that is, and the problem becomes apparent. Americans need or think they need to kill people. Lots of them at one time. It's part of the cultural dna. Well, ya can't blame them.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby BruceP on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:11 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:There seems to be a lot of assumption going on in this thread, and you know what they say about that: it's the mother of all...



Regards the name-calling, I was citing that as part of the general discussion that's going on in the US all over social media, as it follows on what I actually wrote about this discussion being "...a glimpse of what's wrong, overall, with the 'debate' going on in your country" - Not anything any one has written here. I thought that was pretty clear. Apparently not.

Hardly "disengenuous". I was refuting a statement Steve made;

Steve James wrote:Otoh, afa harming people, a wound from a non-scary looking "rifle" doesn't cause as much damage as one fired from an AR type weapon. Ask the doctors who treated the wounds at the high school shooting. Don't take my word for it, of course.

Which, as I said, is just flat out wrong on so many levels, and points to the need for a discussion to be fair on all points - which was hardly the case in what Steve wrote. I've seen that same kind of 'argument' made elsewhere and it just aint fair or factual.

Not sorry if some people missed that. It's called reading comprehension and is basic in what one would expect in an honest discussion.
Last edited by BruceP on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:17 am

It's dishonest to ignore the point made about damage, though. It's not honest to point out the size of the cartridge but not talk about the load behind the slug or muzzle velocity or any other characteristic. Windwalker posted a series of articles about the weapon, the cartridge and why it causes the damage it was designed to do.

I repeat, the weapon isn't the problem. It's that Americans are using a weapon to kill their children in their classrooms. Fix that. The fact that it's easy for a madman or mad kid to get a weapon to do so just adds another layer.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby BruceP on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:26 am

Steve James wrote:It's dishonest to ignore the point made about damage, though. It's not honest to point out the size of the cartridge but not talk about the load behind the slug or muzzle velocity or any other characteristic. Windwalker posted a series of articles about the weapon, the cartridge and why it causes the damage it was designed to do


Where was that ignored? I acknowledged all that:
The 5.56x45 NATO round has been known since the 70s as, "The Tumbling Terror", due to the wounding it created in enemy soldiers during the police action your country was engaging in SE Asia at that time. The bullet is going so fast, and is so light, that as soon as it hits something like a leaf, branch, rib, solid organ, etc, it veers off its trajectory and tumbles around until it runs out of impetus and stops


Depending on bullet weight, the velocity varies from 3100 fps (62gr) to about 3200 fps (55grain).
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:41 am

Aw fuck, the point is the damage. Yes, you pointed it out, and I pointed out earlier that you did. But, I think you're deliberately burying the point in the details. If we agree that the round fired is designed to be more damaging then that's it. We can discuss the issue of restrictions on ownership.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:01 am

Regarding the lethality of legal weapons compared to some standard for defensive or offensive use,ie., need to have a weapon. Windwalker posted that video from Stephen Crowder about 5 myths regarding the AR-15. What I got out of it is that there are many weapons that have very high levels of lethality, they are very effective, and can be categorized as potentially offensive, they could also be banned, however there are so many mass shootings that were successful with common handguns that it doesn't seem to match up.

Crowder's point is that if you want to categorize the AR-15 as too lethal, then most semi-automatic guns would also fall into that category.

Are there counter-arguments to Crowder? I don't know them.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby BruceP on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:21 am

Steve James wrote:Aw fuck, the point is the damage. Yes, you pointed it out, and I pointed out earlier that you did. But, I think you're deliberately burying the point in the details. If we agree that the round fired is designed to be more damaging then that's it. We can discuss the issue of restrictions on ownership.


I actually moved on to the issue of restrictions on ownership in my reply to you where I posted the pics. You just gotta read it. I played a bit of devil's advocate in citing the restrictions which are in place in my country and how there's a disparity in fairness and reasoning in that the AR is a restricted firearm and the mini-14 is not.

You implied that the issue wasn't the cartridge, but the damage, when you wrote this; ;

Steve James wrote:...but my point was about the damage. The issue was not the caliber. And, I think you know that


and earlier, that the platform was the reason for the extra damage.

To which I argued that the issue is the cartridge and windwalker and I showed that

Aint nobody buryin nothin in the details.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:32 am

Michael wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:...these kinds of weapons, which are designed to shoot people...

The vast majority of guns are designed to shoot people, and those which are not are derived from designs for shooting people, and those which are not can still be used to shoot a target, and a target can become a person, so I'm trying to figure out the context of this. Can you elaborate or give me and example or something?


Sure, I was contrasting hunting tools against weapons of self-defense and war. It wasn't that long ago that the vast majority of guns were not designed to kill people, but were hunting tools. Shotguns, 30-06, etc...This was the norm when I was growing up.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:35 am

Bruce, you are being disingenuous in your fixation on the cartridge, round, whatever part you choose to nitpick next. Your assertion has been that it's not about the platform. That's disingenuous. As for name calling, I assure you that I can read. Can you?
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