Autogenic Training

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Autogenic Training

Postby klonk on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:39 pm

Lately I have been learning this. I find it simple and direct, easy to understand, with many benefits of traditional meditation practices without the cultural-religious baggage. I would characterize it as a scripted meditation that produces a light trance state that you can use, if desired, for autosuggestion. It has aspects of mindfulness and of relaxation therapy.

This post is to ask the thoughts of those here who have encountered AT and to alert those who have not that it is something you might find quite interesting.

More about it:

https://www.webmd.com/balance/tc/autoge ... overview#1
Last edited by klonk on Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby everything on Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:21 pm

seems like a great thing to do, thanks for posting
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby klonk on Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:12 pm

As I go on working with AT, I continue to be impressed. It is entirely a thought-directed and intentional process, unlike some traditional meditations that try to blank the mind, or to fuddle it with intentionally meaningless mantras. A short session is as relaxing as a couple of well-crafted Manhattans, and cheaper.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby Yeung on Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:58 pm

It is not very clear how vulnerable is our autonomic nervous system responding to internal and external stimulation. So any case study would be interesting.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby zhenwu on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:09 am

My favorit is Alexander Technique.. it's well know in musician, dancing and acting circles..

this is one exercise..

Very important that you don't react.. just give your body directions ..
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby middleway on Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:17 am

It is not very clear how vulnerable is our autonomic nervous system responding to internal and external stimulation. So any case study would be interesting.


Wim Hofs method is perhaps best known for developing control over the autonomic nervous system. There are several studies investigating his method:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034215/

Hitherto, both the autonomic nervous system and innate immune system were regarded as systems that cannot be voluntarily influenced. The present study demonstrates that, through practicing techniques learned in a short-term training program, the sympathetic nervous system and immune system can indeed be voluntarily influenced.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29438845

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811918300673

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4819555/pdf/10067_2015_Article_3009.pdf
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby RobP3 on Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:22 am

You might want to check out Systema's selective tension / breathing exercises too, along very similar lines to much of the above

http://www.russiansystema.net/selective-tension-and-the-breathing-principle-leading/
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby klonk on Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:57 pm

Yeung wrote:It is not very clear how vulnerable is our autonomic nervous system responding to internal and external stimulation. So any case study would be interesting.


An excellent question, very insightful.

Nasa AFT (Autogenic Feedback Training) combined autogenic training with biofeedback monitors. They got clear experimental observations, for example, https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 028562.pdf

Here is an overview video.



You can also google up results outside the military and aerospace sectors, such as
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16650583
and
http://web.b.ebscohost.com/abstract?dir ... 3d82953745

There is a good bit of material out there but because AT is sort of a backwater in science you may have to dig a bit.
Last edited by klonk on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby Yeung on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:42 pm

There are studies suggesting that AT has effects on people with anxiety disorders but without significant difference when compare with other treatments. One suggestion is that passive concentration is unique in AT.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby klonk on Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:06 pm

AT's combination of passive concentration and subtle autosuggestion is key to its workings, but I cannot say whether it is unique in that way or not.

I got into AT due to a vicious case of insomnia that had me chronically fatigued. It cured my insomnia. Now, instead of tossing and turning, I can just go into a light trance, tune out thoughts and mental images not conducive to sleep, and tell myself it is okay to doze off.

I have not been doing AT for very long but I caught on quickly, I think because of previous experience with zazen and qigong.
Last edited by klonk on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby klonk on Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:18 am

It has lately occurred to me that "passive concentration," a phrase often used to describe one of the fundamentals of AT, is pretty much an oxymoron. It would make better sense to talk about passive observation or non-interfering attention. To be observant about your body but not meddlesome should be your goal.

For instance, one of the AT exercises is to autosuggest a feeling of warmth in your right hand. You repeat "My right hand is warm." You may, if you like, accompany this with a visualization such as warm woolen mittens, or soaking your hands in warm water. But you do nothing directly with or to your hand, just notice as it feels warmer.

It turns out that the autonomic nervous system does not take orders from anyone, but can respond to suggestion. If you concentrate on your hand trying to will it to be warm, the most likely outcome is it will tense up, which will impede circulation slightly, causing your hand to slightly cool instead of warming up.

Of course, passive concentration (or whatever else you call it) is not unique to AT. Nothing in AT is unique, unless it is the way in which the elements are combined. Intentional relaxation, autosuggestion and passive concentration are age-old discoveries.
Last edited by klonk on Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:08 am

For instance, one of the AT exercises is to autosuggest a feeling of warmth in your right hand. You repeat "My right hand is warm." You may, if you like, accompany this with a visualization such as warm woolen mittens, or soaking your hands in warm water. But you do nothing directly with or to your hand, just notice as it feels warmer.


you might find this interesting

"The monks were using a yoga technique known as g Tum-mo, which allowed them to enter a state of deep meditation and significantly raise their body heat, some as much as 17 degrees (Fahrenheit) in their fingers and toes.After the first sheets were dry, they were replaced with new wet sheets by attendants. Each monk was required to dry 3 sheets over the course of several hours.

In other contests held during cold Himalayan nights, the person who dries the most sheets before dawn is considered the winner.The heat generated through g Tum-mo is only a by product of a process designed to correct misconceptions of reality as defined by Buddhism.

Herbert Benson, an associate professor of Medicine at Harvard University who has been studying g Tum-mo for over 20 years, is a firm believer in the healing power of such practices."
https://www.buzzworthy.com/monks-raise- ... mperature/

20yrs long time to study.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:12 am

"The two aspects of g Tum-mo meditation that lead to temperature increases are ‘Vase breath’ and concentrative visualisation. ‘Vase breath’ is a specific breathing technique which causes thermogenesis, a process of heat production.

The other technique, concentrative visualisation, involves focusing on a mental image of flames along the spinal cord in order to prevent heat loss. Scientists at Harvard see the phenomenon as a profound example of the mind’s ability to influence the body.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby klonk on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:50 pm

windwalker wrote:...allowed them to enter a state of deep meditation and significantly raise their body heat, some as much as 17 degrees (Fahrenheit) in their fingers and toes.After the first sheets were dry, they were replaced with new wet sheets by attendants. Each monk was required to dry 3 sheets over the course of several hours.



Wow. That is in excess of any temperature increase that I, at least, have ever heard of from AT.

AT uses natural breathing, something we meet with again in the zhan zhuang of Wang Xiangzhai. It does not use a forced breathing regimen, in other words. AT does, though, include visualization, which becomes more clear and vivid as the trainee progresses in skill.

Breathing is one of the things AT tells you to observe passively rather than influencing. The breath, anyone's breath, is unusual in that it is an autonomic function, but you can change it intentionally. Breathing normally requires no attention, but you can change your breathing to be other than normal. If I had to guess, I would say the monks are boosting their oxygen intake to support the thermogenic process at a higher rate than would otherwise be possible.
Last edited by klonk on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Autogenic Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:36 pm

klonk wrote:
Wow. That is in excess of any temperature increase that I, at least, have ever heard of from AT.

Its well documented from what I understand, it is a big tempt differentiation wonder how much energy it takes
how long can it be sustained .


AT uses natural breathing, something we meet with again in the zhan zhuang of Wang Xiangzhai. It does not use a forced breathing regimen, in other words. AT does, though, include visualization, which becomes more clear and vivid as the trainee progresses in skill.
They use what they call vase breath, don't know if you would term this as forced or not...

Breathing is one of the things AT tells you to observe passively rather than influencing. The breath, anyone's breath, is unusual in that it is an autonomic function, but you can change it intentionally. Breathing normally requires no attention, but you can change your breathing to be other than normal. If I had to guess, I would say the monks are boosting their oxygen intake to support the thermogenic process at a higher rate than would otherwise be possible.


What they call "vase breath" seems to be different.
I think RobP2, might have some interesting beath work based on Systema, practices.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAZlb3gFQc4
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