The Carnivore Diet?

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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby middleway on Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:33 am

Thank you mate :)
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby grzegorz on Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:04 pm

middleway wrote:
Any feedback?


Yep ... i havnt started yet! haha.

I get married this Saturday and the usual arrangements/stresses that go along with that + the honeymoon in Portugal surrounded by amazing food and wine made me rethink my start date.

I will be looking at doing it either in may or June :)


Good for you!

Congratulations!
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby grzegorz on Sun May 27, 2018 10:59 am

Just watched this interview with GSP.

Watch "GSP - Intermittent Fasting Changed My Life - Joe Rogan Podcast" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/W_KS3RQbB5g
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby Peacedog on Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 am

What I've seen in the clinic has been a real eye opener regarding diets.

Veganism I cannot support based off of my clinical experience. Ignoring the fact that you must take supplemental B-12 to simply survive it as there is no naturally occurring plant based source, if I see one more 70 year old vegan woman with low blood pressure who feels cold all the time I'll scream.

Simply put, human physiology is remarkably plastic and capable of surviving any number of different dietary schemes for a good 60-70 years.

Whatever diet is followed, as long as bodyfat levels are kept in check with 10-18% for men and 22-30% for women along with good testosterone levels in men things seem to work out.

In terms of maintaining bodyfat percentages, carbohydrate restriction is how it is done. And this is highly variable. Some people just need to cut out the soda and potato chips and others really have to keep it consistently low carb. The truly gifted in terms of carbohydrate metabolism can eat ho-hos and ding dongs all day long and stay at 10% bodyfat regardless. And we all hate them. :P

If someone wants to be strong, they need to eat a lot of animal protein. The Soviet studies showed anywhere from 1.8-3.5 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight were needed in non-steroid using elite strength athletes. From what I've seen around 2-2.2 grams of animal protein per kilogram of bodyweight works well for most men. I don't have enough experience training women to have an opinion on their needs. Plant protein is no substitute as the amino acid profiles are just wrong.

That said, if someone is dead set on using a plant based diet for sports performance I reference them out to Mike Mahler as he has done all of the work on this. He is also honest that veganism has nothing to do with health. It's a philosophical decision for him. His honesty on the issue is why I respect him.
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby grzegorz on Sun May 27, 2018 11:44 am

True that, my vegan activist cousin always points out that there is a difference between a plant based diet person and a vegan as if being a vegan is much greater than someone who doesn't eat meat.

My cousin is still getting arrested and protesting at places where meat is sold. The sad thing is these protests are lead by people from religions who want to end the suffering of all sentient beings. I say sad because that is their religion and he has been indoctrinated. Saying that he is an adult so although I respect his decision I don't see how getting arrested and protesting is going to convert anyone in fact for me it has done the opposite.

Even the Nate Diaz is eating seafood. For the longest, him and his brother were vegan poster boys. In the end, for me, eating small amounts of meat or a larger portion once a day does the trick. (Compared to the rest of the world most Americans eat a lot of meat.)

Also a 24 hour fast seems to make me feel better all over. What I find most interesting about fasting is that the oldest religions in the world usually have fasting built into it and for good reason. What I like most is that there is nothing to buy and in fact you spend less money which goes against everything else in dieting and in our society for that matter.
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby Peacedog on Sun May 27, 2018 12:28 pm

There's a lot to be said for going to fish as a source of protein. People just need to be careful about heavy metal exposure and depending on how far you live from the coast it can be expensive.

And fasting is some good stuff. Science is finally getting to the point where they can come up with some good metrics on what is going on. My only caveat with fasting is that people need to be careful about taking it too far.

The clinic I worked at was low cost and so a lot of our clientele were mentally ill. Eating disorders were pretty common and the long term effects of that were very sad.

As long as people can keep their bodyfat levels in check, I think they are good to go. How they get there isn't real important to me. I will say that as a functional issue both veganism and the carnivore diet can lead to some interesting micronutrient issues long term without careful planning. And making up for something missing with a pill just seems like a bad idea in general.
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby grzegorz on Sun May 27, 2018 3:40 pm

Thanks for your input. As a doctor you definitely see it all. I have noticed that the Canadian doctor which GSP name drops and who has a video somewhere in this thread advises a simple 24 hour fast or as some fast in the Middle East simply eating after sundown (which is how I think of it).

I enjoyed how GSP points out that it took him time to build up to being able to eat once a day because I have noticed some information seems to set the goal at two weeks or so. Which would be ideal but not really possible for most of us and people working, doing physical work or taking care of a family unless they went on some kind of fasting retreat complete with medical staff to monitor them.
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby Peacedog on Sun May 27, 2018 5:04 pm

Tim Ferris has done some interesting blogging on his results from fasting. Three to four days is about the max I would personally recommend for most people. The liver by itself holds about 200g of glycogen and it takes most people about two to three days to use all of this up while either fasting or using a ketogenic diet.

Interestingly, the longest recorded medically supervised fast lasted over a year. The patient was grossly obese and went from 456 pounds/207 kilos to 180 pounds/82 kilos. Five years later he weighted 196 pounds/89 kilos. The study can be found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 5-0056.pdf

An approach that I've seen work well involves fasting two non-consecutive days per week, say a Monday and a Thursday, until you reach your desired bodyweight. Then cut back to one day per week to maintain the target weight. My brother in law did this. He lost over 30 pounds/15 kilos and has kept the weight off for over three years. It's not great for sports performance, but can be very practical for a number of reasons.
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby everything on Sun May 27, 2018 8:07 pm

Peacedog wrote:Tim Ferris has done some interesting blogging on his results from fasting. Three to four days is about the max I would personally recommend for most people. The liver by itself holds about 200g of glycogen and it takes most people about two to three days to use all of this up while either fasting or using a ketogenic diet.

Interestingly, the longest recorded medically supervised fast lasted over a year. The patient was grossly obese and went from 456 pounds/207 kilos to 180 pounds/82 kilos. Five years later he weighted 196 pounds/89 kilos. The study can be found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 5-0056.pdf

An approach that I've seen work well involves fasting two non-consecutive days per week, say a Monday and a Thursday, until you reach your desired bodyweight. Then cut back to one day per week to maintain the target weight. My brother in law did this. He lost over 30 pounds/15 kilos and has kept the weight off for over three years. It's not great for sports performance, but can be very practical for a number of reasons.


what do people try to do if they actually need the sports performance?

I've been cutting out refined carbs this week and it feels great all around.
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Re: The Carnivore Diet?

Postby Peacedog on Mon May 28, 2018 1:26 am

It depends on what you are doing.

For strength sports you generally need carbs to support muscle building and to keep the body in an anabolic state, particularly if you aren't going to use steroids. This is why pre-steroid bodybuilders used a bulk/cut cycle. That said, you certainly do not ever need refined carbs.

For endurance it is a different story. If you look up ketogenic diets and endurance, you'll find a variety of resources. I am not familiar with this in practice. I've only read the books and limited research that is available. From what I've gathered, it takes a good six months to a year to completely build the pathway out to support high level cardio using only fats for energy. Doable, but not a short term process. Anecdotally, this appears to be a common technique in older endurance athletes who are still competitive.

When it comes to diet I still advise people that maintenance of bodyfat levels is really the important thing in the end.

Exotic diets are completely unnecessary in the general population unless a valid and medically diagnosed reason for the diet exists. In my experience most people claiming a need for an exotic diet are mentally ill and/or lying.

And truthfully, very few reasons exist to do this in a modern country with the exception of people with life threatening allergies. For example, epilepsy that cannot be controlled by medication usually indicates a ketogenic diet. Very high cholesterol levels, 1000+ levels, in the absence of statins may be controlled through a very low carb diet depending upon the situation.

Keep in mind no diet is going to substantially extend your life without some kind of serious underlying pathology. Anyone claiming this is simply lying. Given the state of science, baring accidents or a serious genetic condition, you get a good 70-85 years. After 85 years of age things begin to suck. Past your late 80's they really suck. And if you are one of those that lives to 100, or longer, be prepared to suffer and rely upon others for your day to day care.

Be very wary of nutritional medical research even from sites like PubMed. It is all crap. Huge biases routinely exist, if not outright fabrication and lying. Almost all of the research is conducted by special interest groups trying to prove a point. Some examples of bias, intentional or unintentional, include: failure to follow-up long term, failure to account for outside supplement/vitamin use, small sample sizes, claiming effects from fats or animal protein without controlling for carbohydrate consumption, failure to account for confounding factors, failure to screen for smokers and recreational drug use, failure to account for the age of participants, failure to disclose or actively using unusual study groups (mostly vegan, physically inactive religious fundamentalists), data manipulation, etc.

Keep in mind medical studies writ large can only be confirmed less than half the time. Research fraud is a huge issue across the industry and is, in my opinion, driven by the grant process. The money to conduct a study must come from somewhere and if a readily salable product cannot be derived from the research then the group providing the funding must have another motivation for doing so. And generic goodwill is rarely the reason in practice. Never underestimate the less than benign motivations of unaccountable bureaucrats pushing a personal agenda that has nothing to do with their official position guiding the grant process either.
Last edited by Peacedog on Mon May 28, 2018 3:15 am, edited 10 times in total.
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