Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

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Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby everything on Sun May 27, 2018 4:54 pm

The UEFA Champions League final is the largest annual sporting broadcast by viewers. This year Liverpool faced Real Madrid. Liverpool's star player is Mo Salah, so Madrid's defender Sergio Ramos took him out of the game completely with this takedown, which should have resulted in some kind of referee action, imho, but he got away with it. Basically subtly armbars / arm drags Salah down so he lands awkwardly, dislocating his shoulder, and making sure he cannot continue in the contest. Very, very dirty.

https://streamable.com/emfmv

What do you make of this takedown from an MA perspective? Keep in mind in soccer/football, you want to do these "dark arts" (this one really pushes the boundaries) in a way that should not be noticed.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby wiesiek on Tue May 29, 2018 2:26 am

I don`t really get the question,
but
from MA point of v., he should turn/twist body little more, for "better" break. ;)
However
in such dynamic, running situation,/playground/, where two bodes are turning in the opposite directions, and arms are somehow locked...
hmm , hard to tell , I mean put the border in the "evil" intention and kinda of natural, in this case, move consequences .
To be clear:
when you`re failing and twisting/turning/, left arm is hard to withdraw under the body, and ,addition of natural reflex to keep arm as a head shield takes tool too.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby everything on Tue May 29, 2018 10:26 am

wiesiek wrote:I don`t really get the question,
but
from MA point of v., he should turn/twist body little more, for "better" break. ;)


yeah good idea.

wiesiek wrote:However
in such dynamic, running situation,/playground/, where two bodes are turning in the opposite directions, and arms are somehow locked...
hmm , hard to tell , I mean put the border in the "evil" intention and kinda of natural, in this case, move consequences .
To be clear:
when you`re failing and twisting/turning/, left arm is hard to withdraw under the body, and ,addition of natural reflex to keep arm as a head shield takes tool too.


definitely need better breakfall abilities for this situation, although the damage is pretty well executed. I'm not sure I'd breakfall correctly (especially when you're still trying to actually play the ball). the ref had a major failure in this case imho.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby klonk on Tue May 29, 2018 1:54 pm

To give the greatest possible benefit of the doubt, the arm entanglement and leg block/lift could have occurred accidentally, and likely that is how the ref looked at it.

I do think it came off well enough (or badly enough) to raise a question of dirty dealing. It uses principles of arm drag-down (done going backward from the usual direction) and the uchimata throw. I think the question of dirty play arises easily if you know about martial arts principles, but the question is whether the player who did it knows anything about that stuff, and on a level that would let him extemporize a perfect application of rather an unlikely technique.

Another scenario: White feels himself falling, instinctively clenches his arm in a bit, both are running and red falls over white's leg as both are falling.



Edited to add: But here are similar elements used intentionally by a martial expert: https://youtu.be/f39EkpJhBHE?t=223
Last edited by klonk on Tue May 29, 2018 2:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby everything on Tue May 29, 2018 5:02 pm

very interesting jiu-jitsu clip!

the innocence could be possibly believable, except sergio ramos is a very gifted athlete at the very top of his game at the 5th biggest sports team in the world, and who has routinely done some pretty "good" fouls (you can just google sergio ramos foul gif to see his work). he is one of the last defenders (before the goalie), so he has to use more takedowns/fouls than an attacker would need.

you could say the other guy has been around enough to be able to handle the wrestling. hard to say.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby klonk on Wed May 30, 2018 10:07 am

Oddly enough, the best argument I can think of against evil intention is how perfectly it worked.

Yes, it was rough soccer, and surely white did not want red to kick the ball, but I am estimating the difficulty of that move as a rehearsed procedure. In doing so I must evaluate that both pairs of legs were running and all four eyes were on the ball, and that both chaps went down in a heap. Those considerations lead me to think it was accidental perfection, or else an utter screwup, depending on whether I am rooting for the white or the red team.

It is, however, possible that white had reviewed the idea mentally, even practiced physically, the idea of hooking an opponent into the path of his (white's) stride. The difficulty with that line of prosecution is that to do so offers significant chances of injury for white.
Last edited by klonk on Wed May 30, 2018 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby GrahamB on Wed May 30, 2018 10:32 am

Stable Genius.
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Re: Analyze this takedown [Ramos Salah]

Postby Dajenarit on Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:43 pm

You cant say it was intentional, but he certainly didnt try too hard to release the guys arm as he was falling flat on top of it. It looked liked a small tug at the end too but its not provable.
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