Getting science on your side

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Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:00 pm

Recently, I've been involved in many debates which I believe to be non-constructive.
I have found that most of those debates were filled with faulty information. (Especially taiji and weightlifting).
Seeing how it is impossible and undesirable to approach non-approachable people, I've decided to make video's that are
backed by science instead.
willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:45 am

The word acknowledgment means,
1. acceptance of the truth.
2. The action of expressing gratitude or appreciation.


willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby everything on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:21 pm

do you have a tldr you want us to comment on? I'm not a scientist, but I grew up in a "science town" (where almost all my friends' parents were scientists) and have some training in stats. There is actual scientific method of study supported by statistical methods (to reject that a pattern is due to random mathematical chance) which is about rejecting the null hypothesis (nothing is technically ever proven), and then there is "science".
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:57 pm

everything wrote:do you have a tldr you want us to comment on? I'm not a scientist, but I grew up in a "science town" (where almost all my friends' parents were scientists) and have some training in stats. There is actual scientific method of study supported by statistical methods (to reject that a pattern is due to random mathematical chance) which is about rejecting the null hypothesis (nothing is technically ever proven), and then there is "science".


Interesting.
I've found that the information that I acquired seems to work very well.
Although I have lifted weights for a long time, I believe that by remaining humble and learning from those scientist's has helped me
to shape my own work out.
I really cant figure out why this topic isn't part of the main discussion. Every martial artist will benefit from resistance training, Yes, even Taiji.
Thanks
P.S. If I had the type of information that I put in these video's years ago, it would have saved me a lot of time and effort.
Last edited by willie on Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby everything on Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:06 pm

Sorry not to have fully watched your videos, but if information from scientific studies helps, I agree it seems like a good idea to use it!

For the "mysterious" stuff in taiji, qigong, and TCM, I don't believe scientific studies will be able to explain certain phenomena related mainly to qigong and TCM for a long time. That is mainly for several reasons. 1. Is that there is no good way to do a double-blind study with some kind of control group to isolate factors, so the scientific method can't easily be used as it can in physical science. That doesn't mean the subject is faulty or science "disproves" something. It means the lens can't be used to study the phenomena. That is a big distinction almost all Internet arguments miss and probably will forever miss. 2. No big for-profit entity has anything to gain from funding such studies. Quite the contrary. There is large incentive to attack anything in this area if it's perceived as a threat to big pharma. Only big insurance may have some incentive to support work in this area.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:28 pm

everything wrote:Sorry not to have fully watched your videos, but if information from scientific studies helps, I agree it seems like a good idea to use it!

For the "mysterious" stuff in taiji, qigong, and TCM, I don't believe scientific studies will be able to explain certain phenomena related mainly to qigong and TCM for a long time. That is mainly for several reasons. 1. Is that there is no good way to do a double-blind study with some kind of control group to isolate factors, so the scientific method can't easily be used as it can in physical science. That doesn't mean the subject is faulty or science "disproves" something. It means the lens can't be used to study the phenomena. That is a big distinction almost all Internet arguments miss and probably will forever miss. 2. No big for-profit entity has anything to gain from funding such studies. Quite the contrary. There is large incentive to attack anything in this area if it's perceived as a threat to big pharma. Only big insurance may have some incentive to support work in this area.

Everything, I would have to agree with you when you said that science is not caught up enough to explain the mysterious part of Tai Chi or Qi Gong.
However, that doesn't mean that we can't benefit from what they do know.
willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby everything on Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:50 pm

For sure 100% agreed. Life is so short and we gotta use/do what we can moving super fast from a known Point A to an unknown Point B.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:25 am

everything wrote:For sure 100% agreed. Life is so short and we gotta use/do what we can moving super fast from a known Point A to an unknown Point B.

Okay fair enough. So now I guess that a reasonable question would be, you've been training now for x amount of years, what do you know about the mysterious part that you can be absolutely sure of?
willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:28 pm

The video part 3 messed up some how on youtube, I will replace it tomorrow with a new one.
willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:46 am

Something went wrong with yesterdays upload, So I had to do it over again.
This is information that I wish that I knew when I first got involved.
Thankfully, the internet has become a great source of information. Even though, one has to be careful because
a lot of that information is incorrect.
Part 3
willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby grzegorz on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:47 pm

Image
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby everything on Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:05 pm

willie wrote:
everything wrote:For sure 100% agreed. Life is so short and we gotta use/do what we can moving super fast from a known Point A to an unknown Point B.

Okay fair enough. So now I guess that a reasonable question would be, you've been training now for x amount of years, what do you know about the mysterious part that you can be absolutely sure of?


almost nothing. I can be sure that things like perfect timing and effortless throws are definitely not "mysterious", qualitatively. But how to consistently pull off either the normal "effortless" or the "mysterious" are beyond me. My best sport is soccer, and I'm strictly old man recreational level. I've played with D1 athletes and ex pros, and seen someone from USMNT up close, and they are on another planet. How would a hobbyist in MA or anything else ever get to "elite" level? It's impossible. Every once in a while a normal person can have the perfect golf swing, but that's nothing mysterious.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:27 pm

everything wrote:
willie wrote:
everything wrote:For sure 100% agreed. Life is so short and we gotta use/do what we can moving super fast from a known Point A to an unknown Point B.

Okay fair enough. So now I guess that a reasonable question would be, you've been training now for x amount of years, what do you know about the mysterious part that you can be absolutely sure of?


almost nothing. I can be sure that things like perfect timing and effortless throws are definitely not "mysterious", qualitatively. But how to consistently pull off either the normal "effortless" or the "mysterious" are beyond me. My best sport is soccer, and I'm strictly old man recreational level. I've played with D1 athletes and ex pros, and seen someone from USMNT up close, and they are on another planet. How would a hobbyist in MA or anything else ever get to "elite" level? It's impossible. Every once in a while a normal person can have the perfect golf swing, but that's nothing mysterious.

This is a very level-headed post. The answer is basically nearly no hobbyist are going to come close to competing with professionals.. it's usually a matter of genetics, in my opinion. I can't even imagine why somebody doing Tai Chi would want to jump in the ring with somebody doing MMA. It's just not a good idea. When I was doing MMA the entire intent and mindset was completely different than Tai Chi. Tai Chi can be devastating, but MMA is devastating. There is a big difference between could be, would be, and is. Our entire intent was to get damage. That means to damage your opponent. Taichi is more of a social event where laughing and wow that's cool, and all that fun stuff resides, (insert exceptions here).The weak defeating the strong never had anything to do with somebody insisting that you must be weak in order to perform taiji correctly. That is a complete falsehood. Being athletic is a far superior plan of action. That's why almost all top level sport players enjoy the benefits of weightlifting, body building and/or powerlifting...
Last edited by willie on Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:31 pm

This one didn't come out to good but there is still a couple things that are important.
willie

 

Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:53 am

willie wrote:Recently, I've been involved in many debates which I believe to be non-constructive.
I have found that most of those debates were filled with faulty information. (Especially taiji and weightlifting).
Seeing how it is impossible and undesirable to approach non-approachable people, I've decided to make video's that are
backed by science instead.


"Faulty Information" and labeling people you disagree with as non-approachable seems a bit over the edge. People (and myself) have tried to explain to you why this isn't a good idea in Taiji, that doesn't mean the information is faulty or that we can't be reasoned with. On the contrary, weightlifting and so forth can be valuable forms of exercise. But something seems off about this whole "science on your side" thing.

willie wrote:I really cant figure out why this topic isn't part of the main discussion. Every martial artist will benefit from resistance training, Yes, even Taiji.
...a reasonable question would be, you've been training now for x amount of years, what do you know about the mysterious part that you can be absolutely sure of?
...science is not caught up enough to explain the mysterious part of Tai Chi or Qi Gong.


...Giving the impression you don't know much about 'the mysterious side' of Taiji, and not that it matters, but to the point you seem to be setting up two sides of a same coin, a scientific side and a "mysterious side", and never the twain shall meet.

In the sense that you are being "scientific" you are and you aren't. Stuff like OTM training, protein synthesis and so forth, you are getting closer but you don't seem to have the conviction and knowledge of a professional trainer. You seem to be talking around the subject and there are some obvious holes in your knowledge. Nothing wrong with that. We are all amateurs I suppose but there is some glaring stuff in that what you are doing isn't as functional as it could be. I admit that leg press machines are a bad example of what I am trying to say because I'm not aware of a more functional version of it. A smith machine would be a better example. DB or KB military press is a better functional exercise WRT martial arts. It's a fact that unless you practice freestanding lifts as well you will hurt yourself trying to lift the same as you do on a smith machine. And especially WRT Taiji you can easily set up bad pathways, you can and will hurt yourself doing semingly unrelated moves. I have seen and experienced this many times before. So right off the top I am wondering what you are doing with a leg press machine.

I find this so much in line with everything's comment "For the "mysterious" stuff in taiji, qigong, and TCM, I don't believe scientific studies will be able to explain certain phenomena related mainly to qigong and TCM for a long time." In the sense that sides have been set up and we are choosing sides, you certainly have all of the trappings of modern professional weightlifting and you have obviously done some MMA training as you say, again nothing wrong with that. But other than the obvious lack of functionality applied to Taiji, there is a very real opportunity cost you are going to run into doing stuff like this. The fact is if you are going to play with things like burnout and sustainability you are going to run into problems when you do your forms. In the end, it comes down to, how do these exercises, functional or not, compare with simply doing the form and the qigong and the jibengong at a reasonable pace?

I've experimented with farmer's caries, KB swings, Military Press and so forth. Frankly it doesn't help your Taiji. There is an apparent initial benefit, and it's true you need to "know what strength is", to a point. But it just seems like if you wanted to get good at Taiji you would surround yourself with all the trappings of doing taiji and not all the trappings of sport weightlifting and MMA.

I would say in the end the opportunity cost will ruin your Taiji if nothing else. It would be way too difficult to balance. Second, not everything needs to be "scientific" in the way you are presenting a "scientific approach" here. Third, there are already very many scientific studies on TCMA, qigong, etc. Fourth, I disagree with you and everything's approach to scientific verification. It can be done, the problem being the length of the study. In this regard I think it will not help us in our lifetime to do such a study and that it would be better to listen to the wisdom of the teachers.

Actually perhaps we are all living this study now. Write down and publish everything you can about this willie. It will be a valuable record for the future. If it works it works, and people will need to know. Finally though if you find yourself making a break with taiji per-se, you should also post that. Let people know if it works out either way, and why.
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