Getting science on your side

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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:09 am

Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:Recently, I've been involved in many debates which I believe to be non-constructive.
I have found that most of those debates were filled with faulty information. (Especially taiji and weightlifting).
Seeing how it is impossible and undesirable to approach non-approachable people, I've decided to make video's that are
backed by science instead.


"Faulty Information" and labeling people you disagree with as non-approachable seems a bit over the edge. People (and myself) have tried to explain to you why this isn't a good idea in Taiji, that doesn't mean the information is faulty or that we can't be reasoned with. On the contrary, weightlifting and so forth can be valuable forms of exercise. But something seems off about this whole "science on your side" thing.

willie wrote:I really cant figure out why this topic isn't part of the main discussion. Every martial artist will benefit from resistance training, Yes, even Taiji.
...a reasonable question would be, you've been training now for x amount of years, what do you know about the mysterious part that you can be absolutely sure of?
...science is not caught up enough to explain the mysterious part of Tai Chi or Qi Gong.


...Giving the impression you don't know much about 'the mysterious side' of Taiji, and not that it matters, but to the point you seem to be setting up two sides of a same coin, a scientific side and a "mysterious side", and never the twain shall meet.

In the sense that you are being "scientific" you are and you aren't. Stuff like OTM training, protein synthesis and so forth, you are getting closer but you don't seem to have the conviction and knowledge of a professional trainer. You seem to be talking around the subject and there are some obvious holes in your knowledge. Nothing wrong with that. We are all amateurs I suppose but there is some glaring stuff in that what you are doing isn't as functional as it could be. I admit that leg press machines are a bad example of what I am trying to say because I'm not aware of a more functional version of it. A smith machine would be a better example. DB or KB military press is a better functional exercise WRT martial arts. It's a fact that unless you practice freestanding lifts as well you will hurt yourself trying to lift the same as you do on a smith machine. And especially WRT Taiji you can easily set up bad pathways, you can and will hurt yourself doing semingly unrelated moves. I have seen and experienced this many times before. So right off the top I am wondering what you are doing with a leg press machine.

I find this so much in line with everything's comment "For the "mysterious" stuff in taiji, qigong, and TCM, I don't believe scientific studies will be able to explain certain phenomena related mainly to qigong and TCM for a long time." In the sense that sides have been set up and we are choosing sides, you certainly have all of the trappings of modern professional weightlifting and you have obviously done some MMA training as you say, again nothing wrong with that. But other than the obvious lack of functionality applied to Taiji, there is a very real opportunity cost you are going to run into doing stuff like this. The fact is if you are going to play with things like burnout and sustainability you are going to run into problems when you do your forms. In the end, it comes down to, how do these exercises, functional or not, compare with simply doing the form and the qigong and the jibengong at a reasonable pace?

I've experimented with farmer's caries, KB swings, Military Press and so forth. Frankly it doesn't help your Taiji. There is an apparent initial benefit, and it's true you need to "know what strength is", to a point. But it just seems like if you wanted to get good at Taiji you would surround yourself with all the trappings of doing taiji and not all the trappings of sport weightlifting and MMA.

I would say in the end the opportunity cost will ruin your Taiji if nothing else. It would be way too difficult to balance. Second, not everything needs to be "scientific" in the way you are presenting a "scientific approach" here. Third, there are already very many scientific studies on TCMA, qigong, etc. Fourth, I disagree with you and everything's approach to scientific verification. It can be done, the problem being the length of the study. In this regard I think it will not help us in our lifetime to do such a study and that it would be better to listen to the wisdom of the teachers.

Actually perhaps we are all living this study now. Write down and publish everything you can about this willie. It will be a valuable record for the future. If it works it works, and people will need to know. Finally though if you find yourself making a break with taiji per-se, you should also post that. Let people know if it works out either way, and why.


Interesting.
There's nothing wrong with using a leg press as example. It works the same way for them all.
Holes? Not really. Although I think that the video's could have been set up much better. i just did them naturally.
Ruin my taiji? I don't think so. My taiji is pretty good...
Something off about using a scientific approach?
By the way Apple Dog. Not on a professional level? The professional trainers at my gym which there are several of them, either do not have the information that I put in these videos or do not follow the advice of science. Even when they have paying clients, they don't even show their clients how to properly set up the safeties inside a squat rack. Apple Dog, I remember my last argument with you. Remember you accused me of making up stories of helical gears? Not that you needed to thank me for posting the correct information. But the outwardly accused me of making it all up? Perhaps you can find it in your heart to thank me for the information before you criticize it.
Last edited by willie on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby GrahamB on Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:43 am

I'm pretty sure science doesn't have a "side".
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Michael on Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:16 am

GrahamB wrote:I'm pretty sure science doesn't have a "side".

It certainly has a blind side to that which can not be empirically measured.

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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:42 am

willie wrote:There's nothing wrong with using a leg press as example. It works the same way for them all.
Holes? Not really. Although I think that the video's could have been set up much better. i just did them naturally.
Ruin my taiji? I don't think so. My taiji is pretty good...
Something off about using a scientific approach?
By the way Apple Dog. Not on a professional level? The professional trainers at my gym which there are several of them, either do not have the information that I put in these videos or do not follow the advice of science. Even when they have paying clients, they don't even show their clients how to properly set up the safeties inside a squat rack. Apple Dog, I remember my last argument with you. Remember you accused me of making up stories of helical gears? Not that you needed to thank me for posting the correct information. But the outwardly accused me of making it all up? Perhaps you can find it in your heart to thank me for the information before you criticize it.


Yeah that thing about helical gears never happened, you made it up. I told you to quote me and you ignored me and just accused me of doing it again.

Yes there are holes in what you are saying, it doesn't seem to hit the mark in a few areas. Again not a bad thing you're clearly in the right area WRT a more scientific approach to training. Articles like "What's Wrong With using the Smith Machine?" and this article on free weights vs. machines brush on the subject. The key is that these machines only allow your body to operate on a single plane of motion and as such unevenly train your muscle and bone structure, setting you up for injury later. There are dozens of articles like this one online, talking about the dangers of such machines vs. free weights. You also don't seem to understand OTM training/training to failure and the body's various energy (i mean, energy production i.e. metabolic) pathways. Again this is not a criticism I'm just saying that the whole "science on your side" thing seems like your picking a side is a mistaken idea i nthe first place. Your characterizing this as such places you in opposition with traditional methods, and as soon as you do that you aren't really doing tai chi anymore. I think characterizing this more as experimenting with sports science, and how it can help your tai chi would be better. We all go through a learning process.

It just seems like your "I don't understand why..." really means "I don't agree with the traditional party line" when it comes to weights/etc. I think you do know, you just don't agree. I'm honestly curious as to how this all works out for you. I've seen many people go down your road and they all come to a crisis point with their Tai Chi and then end up leaving IMA for other things. The most frequent complaint is a sort of anger or rejection of the art which seems to be about not being able to "finally get it" and not waning to keep "wasting time" doing stuff that "isn't as effective" as whatever else they get into.

I'll point out again that in tai chi and all CMA there is a sort of zen truth behind things, that there is no try, only do -- what I mean is, you have to be able to "do it". Being "good at it" I am not sure what that means. If you do it, you do it. Do it right. I look at your videos and while you certainly seem to have a lot of interesting, "scientific" weightlifting info in there, how precisely are we supposed to apply this to our taiji? And again, at what opportunity cost, assuming we're trying to avoid going into prolonged recovery mode? How does taking rest days affect your form? Etc.
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:06 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:17 am

Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:There's nothing wrong with using a leg press as example. It works the same way for them all.
Holes? Not really. Although I think that the video's could have been set up much better. i just did them naturally.
Ruin my taiji? I don't think so. My taiji is pretty good...
Something off about using a scientific approach?
By the way Apple Dog. Not on a professional level? The professional trainers at my gym which there are several of them, either do not have the information that I put in these videos or do not follow the advice of science. Even when they have paying clients, they don't even show their clients how to properly set up the safeties inside a squat rack. Apple Dog, I remember my last argument with you. Remember you accused me of making up stories of helical gears? Not that you needed to thank me for posting the correct information. But the outwardly accused me of making it all up? Perhaps you can find it in your heart to thank me for the information before you criticize it.


Yeah that thing about helical gears never happened, you made it up. I told you to quote me and you ignored me and just accused me of doing it again.

Yes there are holes in what you are saying, it doesn't seem to hit the mark in a few areas. Again not a bad thing you're clearly in the right area WRT a more scientific approach to training. Articles like "What's Wrong With using the Smith Machine?" and this article on free weights vs. machines brush on the subject. You also don't seem to understand OTM training/training to failure. Your experimenting with it, that's good enough, right? We all go through a learning process. Then again maybe I am wrong about this. You say you have some pro trainers at your gym who are giving you all this info. That's kind of what I am talking about. None of this has anything to do with Tai Chi, right? I mean beside [i]you[/b] claiming it does -- because apparently it "feels good". That's a bit dubious, but I'm willing to buy in if it works. Time will tell on that one, keep the videos coming I guess. At least you're not taking them down like the Tai Chi videos :/

As for how good your taiji is, it's not my place to say because you haven't offered up anything you want judged. Overall I think you just need to relax and stop treating this like an argument. But I will say, that if your "taiji is good" then keep in mind we do the same style so on the surface it doesn't seem to make sense to me why you find so much difference between what I am saying and what you certainly must have learned from your teacher. Keeping in mind, your "I don't understand why..." seems to really mean "I don't agree with the traditional party line." It isn't that you don't know, you do know, you just don't agree. I'm honestly curious as to how this all works out for you; cuz i've seen many people go down your road and they all come to a crisis point with their Tai Chi and then end up leaving IMA for other things. The most frequent complaint is a sort of anger or rejection of the art which seems to be about not being able to "finally get it" and not waning to keep "wasting time" doing stuff that "isn't as effective" as xyz. Or that they don't feel it's a complete art. Clearly you are at a halfway point on this. It drips off you. Don't take it the wrong way, if you like the weights thing it can work out great for you.

I'll point out again that in tai chi and all CMA there is a sort of zen truth behind things, that there is no try, only do -- what I mean is, you have to be able to "do it". Being "good at it" I am not sure what that means. If you do it, you do it. Do it right. I look at your videos and while you certainly seem to have a lot of interesting, "scientific" weightlifting info in there, how precisely are we supposed to apply this to our taiji? And again, at what opportunity cost, assuming we're trying to avoid going into prolonged recovery mode? How does taking rest days affect your form? Etc.


I disagree with you completely.
first off, I am relaxed.
Yes you did accuse me of making up the thing on gears and ball-bearings. Then Charles interceded and told you that I was correct!
So you say that we are doing the same style, yet you didn't even know that and you say that you are a judge?
Guess what, I would have to assume from your writing that you don't have a strong transmission, where's your video's?
Nothing personal, but you can on here downing everyone's terrible form work and only then did I show you a couple of my taiji video's.
Then you corrected yourself by stating that it's a strong village style. That's most likely because you heard that it was from GMWHJ.
Who is most likely is the "number one" guy of that style in the world today...

As you can clearly see, I posted this in OTT, Do you want to know why?
I'm trying to avoid martial discussion. Seeing how coming from a very strong linage means next to nothing on RSF, then I would rather just talk about something else.
My other hobbies...
Thank You
P.S. as far as using a leg press, or a Smith machine, or any other kind of machine, like a hack squat. They are all good. Every single one of them. If you took the time, which would be about only one minute, you probably could find half a dozen videos showing mr. Olympia using a leg press, or a hack squat, or a Smith machine. They are considered accessory exercises to the main lifts.
Last edited by willie on Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:35 am

willie wrote:Yes you did accuse me of making up the thing on gears and ball-bearings.


No I didn't, and you can feel free to quote me.


willie wrote:Nothing personal, but you can on here downing everyone's terrible form work and only then did I show you a couple of my taiji video's.


See, you're just making stuff up about me. I'm not criticizing anyone's terrible form work. In fact I just said it wasn't my place to do so.

willie wrote:I'm trying to avoid martial discussion.


Then I'll ignore you from now on when you talk about how marvelous weightlifting is for your Tai Chi and how everyone should be doing it.

willie wrote:Seeing how coming from a very strong linage means next to nothing on RSF, ...


Says more about RSF imo. Some of the stuff posted here recently is just depressing. (No not talking about EF either. I didn't say anything when it came up, doubt anyone else picked up on it either, par for the course I guess.. just depressing as hell)
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:56 am

Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:Yes you did accuse me of making up the thing on gears and ball-bearings.


No I didn't, and you can feel free to quote me.


willie wrote:Nothing personal, but you can on here downing everyone's terrible form work and only then did I show you a couple of my taiji video's.


See, you're just making stuff up about me. I'm not criticizing anyone's terrible form work. In fact I just said it wasn't my place to do so.

willie wrote:I'm trying to avoid martial discussion.


Then I'll ignore you from now on when you talk about how marvelous weightlifting is for your Tai Chi and how everyone should be doing it.

willie wrote:Seeing how coming from a very strong linage means next to nothing on RSF, ...


Says more about RSF imo. Some of the stuff posted here recently is just depressing. (No not talking about EF either. I didn't say anything when it came up, doubt anyone else picked up on it either, par for the course I guess.. just depressing as hell)

Apple Dog, cool your jets. I'm not upset and I hope that you are upset either. Words just look like that without a person behind them. You will find that if you wanted to have a in-depth discussion on real martial arts, that you probably would be very happy to hear the things that I would have to say. Yes you are correct it is very depressing.
Adam Mizner used to write me many years ago about empty Force. He was very much involved with that as well. My opinion of it is that there is something there, but whatever it is that is there, "was never meant to be able to stop an attacker." It doesn't work because whatever it is wasn't designed for that.
And my video's certainly were not meant to be anything that would insult somebody, it's actually quite the opposite I'm just trying to make friends sharing quality information
Last edited by willie on Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby everything on Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:04 pm

Michael wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I'm pretty sure science doesn't have a "side".

It certainly has a blind side to that which can not be empirically measured.

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science and other "objective" activities are done by people and funded by people with agendas ... so all these activities have a "side"
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:44 am

everything wrote:
Michael wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I'm pretty sure science doesn't have a "side".

It certainly has a blind side to that which can not be empirically measured.

Image


science and other "objective" activities are done by people and funded by people with agendas ... so all these activities have a "side"


This comment has a valid point because of the pharmacy's. however, even if they are trying to sell something, can we just ignore the facts?
Here is some real facts.

Sarcopenia literally means "lack of flesh." It's a condition of age-associated muscle degeneration that becomes more common in people over the age of 50.

After middle age, adults lose 3% of their muscle strength every year, on average. This limits their ability to perform many routine activities.

Unfortunately, sarcopenia also shortens life expectancy in those it affects, compared to individuals with normal muscle strength.

Sarcopenia is caused by an imbalance between signals for muscle cell growth and signals for teardown. Cell growth processes are called "anabolism," and cell teardown processes are called "catabolism"

For example, growth hormones act with protein-destroying enzymes to keep muscle steady through a cycle of growth, stress or injury, destruction and then healing.

This cycle is always occurring, and when things are in balance, muscle keeps its strength over time.

However, during aging, the body becomes resistant to the normal growth signals, tipping the balance toward catabolism and muscle loss.

Immobility, Including a Sedentary Lifestyle
Disuse of muscle is one of the strongest triggers of sarcopenia, leading to faster muscle loss and increasing weakness.

Bed rest or immobilization after an injury or illness leads to rapid loss of muscle.

Although less dramatic, two to three weeks of decreased walking and other regular activity is also enough to decrease muscle mass and strength.

Periods of decreased activity can become a vicious cycle. Muscle strength decreases, resulting in greater fatigue and making it more difficult to return to normal activity.

O.k. I think that everyone gets the picture?
I was watching a taichi master "bragging" how he has no muscle, Medically He is not only wrong, but also encouraging other's to follow that same path.

This is one reason why it's important to remain humble. if he continues on that path, he will lose more and more until he is a weak old man.

Perhaps my boring video's aren't so bad after all?

Thanks
Last edited by willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 pm

I think that people seem to underestimate what's truly involved in body building. There is a lot of knowledge there.

P.S. I'm trying to improve my video's by keeping them short and direct. There is a lot more to the picture then meets the eye.
Someone asked why I don't just do squats. I do squats, it's just not part of these video's.
These video's are to relay important facts. The leg press is just one exercise of many.

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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby grzegorz on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:02 pm

I think there are taiji and weight lifting threads out there and it probabaly would have been a better title.

Personally I think there are times in training when lifting weights is more useful than other times. For someone who is already strong and can't relax I imagine that taking a break from weight lifting could be useful but by no means permanent.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:18 pm

grzegorz wrote:I think there are taiji and weight lifting threads out there and it probabaly would have been a better title.

Personally I think there are times in training when lifting weights is more useful than other times. For someone who is already strong and can't relax I imagine that taking a break from weight lifting could be useful but by no means permanent.


I think that mabye someday i will plan my video's better and do a better job on them, But the material is honest and good.

I think that you are correct. It would be very difficult to teach someone who lifts weights seriously taiji.
But if you have a good understanding of taiji first, then weight lifting will not ruin taiji.
The reason why i say that it will make your taiji better is, You are better, Your body is better...
And because your body is better, then everything you do is better. Even walking is enhanced.
Good post
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby grzegorz on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:00 am

Right, now I understand the title.

I have noticed that taiji clubs that frown on any weight training tend to have and attract chi belly bodies and like you I don't see how being overweight and a lack of exercise can be good for anyone.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Trick on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:43 am

Willie I can’t see the vids so can’t comment on them. It’s a long long time ago I did any weight training, but just give a quick thought about it’s benefits to MA’s and maybe even IMA’s I would say first I would agree with Appledog on the weight-machines practice and that such would probably not be a good idea for an (internal)MAist, but free weight training such as deadlifts and squats in where more muscle groups work in union could be good supplementary exercises, also in the olympic categories snatch and clean jerk I can see elements that could benefit a martial artist.......Train happily and do what works for you.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:10 pm

Trick wrote:Willie I can’t see the vids so can’t comment on them. It’s a long long time ago I did any weight training, but just give a quick thought about it’s benefits to MA’s and maybe even IMA’s I would say first I would agree with Appledog on the weight-machines practice and that such would probably not be a good idea for an (internal)MAist, but free weight training such as deadlifts and squats in where more muscle groups work in union could be good supplementary exercises, also in the olympic categories snatch and clean jerk I can see elements that could benefit a martial artist.......Train happily and do what works for you.


Why cant you see my video's?
I do free weights too. If I was impartial and looked back at the several injuries that I have had from weightlifting,
Every injury was either from squats or deadlifts. Zero from smith machines and zero from leg press.
So as you can see, the net is in need of much censorship.
In Part 6 I did some running before the session, then volume training.
Last edited by willie on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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