Getting science on your side

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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:44 am

everything wrote:
Michael wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I'm pretty sure science doesn't have a "side".

It certainly has a blind side to that which can not be empirically measured.

Image


science and other "objective" activities are done by people and funded by people with agendas ... so all these activities have a "side"


This comment has a valid point because of the pharmacy's. however, even if they are trying to sell something, can we just ignore the facts?
Here is some real facts.

Sarcopenia literally means "lack of flesh." It's a condition of age-associated muscle degeneration that becomes more common in people over the age of 50.

After middle age, adults lose 3% of their muscle strength every year, on average. This limits their ability to perform many routine activities.

Unfortunately, sarcopenia also shortens life expectancy in those it affects, compared to individuals with normal muscle strength.

Sarcopenia is caused by an imbalance between signals for muscle cell growth and signals for teardown. Cell growth processes are called "anabolism," and cell teardown processes are called "catabolism"

For example, growth hormones act with protein-destroying enzymes to keep muscle steady through a cycle of growth, stress or injury, destruction and then healing.

This cycle is always occurring, and when things are in balance, muscle keeps its strength over time.

However, during aging, the body becomes resistant to the normal growth signals, tipping the balance toward catabolism and muscle loss.

Immobility, Including a Sedentary Lifestyle
Disuse of muscle is one of the strongest triggers of sarcopenia, leading to faster muscle loss and increasing weakness.

Bed rest or immobilization after an injury or illness leads to rapid loss of muscle.

Although less dramatic, two to three weeks of decreased walking and other regular activity is also enough to decrease muscle mass and strength.

Periods of decreased activity can become a vicious cycle. Muscle strength decreases, resulting in greater fatigue and making it more difficult to return to normal activity.

O.k. I think that everyone gets the picture?
I was watching a taichi master "bragging" how he has no muscle, Medically He is not only wrong, but also encouraging other's to follow that same path.

This is one reason why it's important to remain humble. if he continues on that path, he will lose more and more until he is a weak old man.

Perhaps my boring video's aren't so bad after all?

Thanks
Last edited by willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:03 pm

I think that people seem to underestimate what's truly involved in body building. There is a lot of knowledge there.

P.S. I'm trying to improve my video's by keeping them short and direct. There is a lot more to the picture then meets the eye.
Someone asked why I don't just do squats. I do squats, it's just not part of these video's.
These video's are to relay important facts. The leg press is just one exercise of many.

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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby grzegorz on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:02 pm

I think there are taiji and weight lifting threads out there and it probabaly would have been a better title.

Personally I think there are times in training when lifting weights is more useful than other times. For someone who is already strong and can't relax I imagine that taking a break from weight lifting could be useful but by no means permanent.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:18 pm

grzegorz wrote:I think there are taiji and weight lifting threads out there and it probabaly would have been a better title.

Personally I think there are times in training when lifting weights is more useful than other times. For someone who is already strong and can't relax I imagine that taking a break from weight lifting could be useful but by no means permanent.


I think that mabye someday i will plan my video's better and do a better job on them, But the material is honest and good.

I think that you are correct. It would be very difficult to teach someone who lifts weights seriously taiji.
But if you have a good understanding of taiji first, then weight lifting will not ruin taiji.
The reason why i say that it will make your taiji better is, You are better, Your body is better...
And because your body is better, then everything you do is better. Even walking is enhanced.
Good post
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby grzegorz on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:00 am

Right, now I understand the title.

I have noticed that taiji clubs that frown on any weight training tend to have and attract chi belly bodies and like you I don't see how being overweight and a lack of exercise can be good for anyone.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Trick on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:43 am

Willie I can’t see the vids so can’t comment on them. It’s a long long time ago I did any weight training, but just give a quick thought about it’s benefits to MA’s and maybe even IMA’s I would say first I would agree with Appledog on the weight-machines practice and that such would probably not be a good idea for an (internal)MAist, but free weight training such as deadlifts and squats in where more muscle groups work in union could be good supplementary exercises, also in the olympic categories snatch and clean jerk I can see elements that could benefit a martial artist.......Train happily and do what works for you.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:10 pm

Trick wrote:Willie I can’t see the vids so can’t comment on them. It’s a long long time ago I did any weight training, but just give a quick thought about it’s benefits to MA’s and maybe even IMA’s I would say first I would agree with Appledog on the weight-machines practice and that such would probably not be a good idea for an (internal)MAist, but free weight training such as deadlifts and squats in where more muscle groups work in union could be good supplementary exercises, also in the olympic categories snatch and clean jerk I can see elements that could benefit a martial artist.......Train happily and do what works for you.


Why cant you see my video's?
I do free weights too. If I was impartial and looked back at the several injuries that I have had from weightlifting,
Every injury was either from squats or deadlifts. Zero from smith machines and zero from leg press.
So as you can see, the net is in need of much censorship.
In Part 6 I did some running before the session, then volume training.
Last edited by willie on Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:15 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:42 pm

willie wrote:I do free weights too. If I was impartial and looked back at the several injuries that I have had from weightlifting,
Every injury was either from squats or deadlifts. Zero from smith machines and zero from leg press.


Yes, that is exactly how the injuries will manifest themselves -- never while you are using the machine, but as soon as you try to use the same strength with free-weights. The machines train your body along a certain plane, leaving other planes untrained. Kind of like only doing curls and having good biceps but being unable to do pushups because you didn't train your deltoids. The injuries will first start showing up during your other training since that is where you are loading yourself the most and therefore more likely to overextend yourself by lifting more than your body can handle. But they have also been known to occur when someone does something like lift a bag of groceries, etc. with a little too much force.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:58 pm

Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:I do free weights too. If I was impartial and looked back at the several injuries that I have had from weightlifting,
Every injury was either from squats or deadlifts. Zero from smith machines and zero from leg press.


Yes, that is exactly how the injuries will manifest themselves -- never while you are using the machine, but as soon as you try to use the same strength with free-weights. The machines train your body along a certain plane, leaving other planes untrained. Kind of like only doing curls and having good biceps but being unable to do pushups because you didn't train your deltoids. The injuries will first start showing up during your other training since that is where you are loading yourself the most and therefore more likely to overextend yourself by lifting more than your body can handle. But they have also been known to occur when someone does something like lift a bag of groceries, etc. with a little too much force.


Well at least you are half right.
Appledog, I was the one who hardly ever used machines and constantly told others to do only free weights.
Machines are just fine. They all are good.
I guess I will have to make a new video, lol!
Last edited by willie on Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:16 pm

Appledog wrote:
you don't seem to have the conviction and knowledge of a professional trainer. You seem to be talking around the subject and there are some obvious holes in your knowledge.



I find it very interesting how you decide to look at things through a negative/shaded eyepiece.
Free squats using the Bulgarian system with >70 percent my current 1RM.
I'm currently complementing the Bulgarian system with 10 sets of 10 on the leg press for purposes of hypertrophy.
Perhaps you underestimated once again?
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:57 pm

willie wrote:Perhaps you underestimated once again?


Yes; doing 70%+ (under 5 reps max) is a great way to tear your spinal erectors and take you out of commission for 6 months to forever. These kinds of injuries can make it so you never do weightlifting (or martial arts) ever again. You won't need to be in a wheelchair but you might find you prefer it.

Willie you're not the first tai chi person to go down this road and your ignoring people's advice is very foolish. Besides that you seem to be doing a good job at the stuff in and of itself. Your main blind spot here is that because you don't understand the goal of your training you think doing these kinds of exercise will help -- it won't. That is, unless your training has fallen so far away from tai chi now that you aren't really doing tai chi anymore, which I suspect.

A while ago I asked you what your teacher thought of you doing this kind of weightlifting. Did you ever get a chance to ask him?
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:04 pm

Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:Perhaps you underestimated once again?


Yes; doing 70%+ (under 5 reps max) is a great way to tear your spinal erectors and take you out of commission for 6 months to forever. These kinds of injuries can make it so you never do weightlifting (or martial arts) ever again. You won't need to be in a wheelchair but you might find you prefer it.

Willie you're not the first tai chi person to go down this road and your ignoring people's advice is very foolish. Besides that you seem to be doing a good job at the stuff in and of itself. Your main blind spot here is that because you don't understand the goal of your training you think doing these kinds of exercise will help -- it won't. That is, unless your training has fallen so far away from tai chi now that you aren't really doing tai chi anymore, which I suspect.

A while ago I asked you what your teacher thought of you doing this kind of weightlifting. Did you ever get a chance to ask him?
you simply amaze me Apple Dog, you really do. So you write that I should follow other people's advice and I am foolish for not doing so, correct? What makes you think that these people's advice are even close to my level? The last person who has trained Chen style for more than 30 years who told me I should stop weight lifting lasted less than 15 seconds against me. That's not bragging Apple Dog that's the fact. Also, I'm having a hard time understanding why you position yourself in such a way as if you are superior, but yet, you refuse to post a video?
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:03 pm

willie wrote:
Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:Perhaps you underestimated once again?


Yes; doing 70%+ (under 5 reps max) is a great way to tear your spinal erectors and take you out of commission for 6 months to forever. These kinds of injuries can make it so you never do weightlifting (or martial arts) ever again. You won't need to be in a wheelchair but you might find you prefer it.

Willie you're not the first tai chi person to go down this road and your ignoring people's advice is very foolish. Besides that you seem to be doing a good job at the stuff in and of itself. Your main blind spot here is that because you don't understand the goal of your training you think doing these kinds of exercise will help -- it won't. That is, unless your training has fallen so far away from tai chi now that you aren't really doing tai chi anymore, which I suspect.

A while ago I asked you what your teacher thought of you doing this kind of weightlifting. Did you ever get a chance to ask him?
you simply amaze me Apple Dog, you really do. So you write that I should follow other people's advice and I am foolish for not doing so, correct? What makes you think that these people's advice are even close to my level? The last person who has trained Chen style for more than 30 years who told me I should stop weight lifting lasted less than 15 seconds against me. That's not bragging Apple Dog that's the fact. Also, I'm having a hard time understanding why you position yourself in such a way as if you are superior, but yet, you refuse to post a video?


That was explained to you the first time you asked. Why do you keep ignoring my question? It *seems like* you are ignoring my question because you feel that it is you who are in fact superior here (I harbored no such thoughts and was not aware there was a contest going on). Yet clearly since no one who has been doing Chen for under 30 years can hold their own against you, you have the goods.

I just happen to suspect that by "the goods" you mean "something which really isn't tai chi at all", and in which case credibility isn't an issue -- you simply aren't doing tai chi and shouldn't be telling other people what is and is not good for it. People who care about the art, even if only for the sake of the art, do not need to post videos and be "good" to know or care about the cohesiveness of their system.

Gratz on your win vs the chen style guy though, i'd certainly enjoy hearing that story sometime. I mean, it does sound like a story which would be a great tell.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby willie on Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:49 pm

[Appledog]

That was explained to you the first time you asked. Why do you keep ignoring my question? It *seems like* you are ignoring my question because you feel that it is you who are in fact superior here (I harbored no such thoughts and was not aware there was a contest going on). Yet clearly since no one who has been doing Chen for under 30 years can hold their own against you, you have the goods.

I just happen to suspect that by "the goods" you mean "something which really isn't tai chi at all", and in which case credibility isn't an issue -- you simply aren't doing tai chi and shouldn't be telling other people what is and is not good for it. People who care about the art, even if only for the sake of the art, do not need to post videos and be "good" to know or care about the cohesiveness of their system.

Gratz on your win vs the chen style guy though, i'd certainly enjoy hearing that story sometime. I mean, it does sound like a story which would be a great tell[/quote]


Apple Dog once again you have it completely wrong. I don't find it amusing for somebody with that kind of time to lose so easily. In fact it's quite sad. So you say that I'm not doing Tai Chi? How the hell do you know? The chances of me not knowing what Tai Chi is or how to use it is zero and seeing how you are constantly going against everything that I post , well that would mean that you and yes that means "you" don't know what you're talking about. No you never explained to me why you have not posted a video. I would imagine it's because you're too embarrassed. I mean who do you think you're fooling?
Last edited by willie on Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Getting science on your side

Postby Appledog on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:20 pm

willie wrote:The chances of me not knowing what Tai Chi is or how to use it is zero


Great! Then you should have no problem discussing the topic, or answering my questions. OTOH if you keep making this about my credibility that can also be seen as a way of answering my question. Either way I plan to be satisfied with your answer into the future -- I don't think this is a complex discussion and the questions I am asking are not that deep.

willie wrote:I mean who do you think you're fooling?


You said that your training methods here enabled you to defeat someone who had been doing Chen style for 30+ years. There's a lot of presumptions built into that statement, such as that they hadn't been doing the kind of training you are advocating here, and possibly that it is a repeatable experiment. Essentially, I'm just curious as to why you keep saying your methods here are so great for Tai Chi when they are so very clearly (even by your own insinuation) not a part of "Tai Chi" training at all. I myself have been doing Tai Chi for around 30 years now, give or take, and I have heard a lot of stories like yours which turn out to be misrepresentations. You should know this if you've been around for any length of time, especially at the professional level. It's one thing to ask questions, rude or not, but once an inconvenient question is asked you have to be able to answer it. It is never about the questioner. The questioner eats it on the face for standing up and asking the question. You should know all of this already.

You've certainly been given every opportunity to clarify your position or provide more information...

I'm trying hard here to prevent the piano music from starting again willie. I'd really like to know how your teacher thinks of this training, and the story behind your defeat of the Chen guy. I just like hearing other people's stories and experiences. It's what I come here for, personally (the discussion and sharing of people's knowledge).
Last edited by Appledog on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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