South Korean Parliament brawl

[DeusTrismegistus]

Honestly I love democracy, but has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe it is not the best system for everyone?

I mean Europe and the US went through a lot of shit to gain the perspectives we have now which allows us to rule through democracy. The ideas and philosophies that are necessary to make a democracy functional as well as the education necessary on a large scale all evolved over 100s of years and are a byproduct of our culture and history. Maybe certain regions, with different histories and cultures, are not well suited to democracy? Its awfully arrogant the way most people assume that democracy is the best way, for everyone, and all the time. Maybe its not, and maybe we should stop pushing everyone to be like us and let them decide their own way to rule themselves.

[ashe]

I think it just as arrogant to insinuate that a few hundred years of western history has prepared us for democracy but the long history of the East has left Asians unprepared.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I think it just as arrogant to insinuate that a few hundred years of western history has prepared us for democracy but the long history of the East has left Asians unprepared.

Its only arrogant if you believe democracy is superior to other forms of government . I don't really think it is. Like most things its just a different form.

[Interloper]

Honestly I love democracy, but has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe it is not the best system for everyone?

Democracy only works in places where everyone has a full belly.

[mixjourneyman]

Honestly I love democracy, but has anyone ever stopped to think that maybe it is not the best system for everyone?

I mean Europe and the US went through a lot of shit to gain the perspectives we have now which allows us to rule through democracy. The ideas and philosophies that are necessary to make a democracy functional as well as the education necessary on a large scale all evolved over 100s of years and are a byproduct of our culture and history. Maybe certain regions, with different histories and cultures, are not well suited to democracy? Its awfully arrogant the way most people assume that democracy is the best way, for everyone, and all the time. Maybe its not, and maybe we should stop pushing everyone to be like us and let them decide their own way to rule themselves.

"If you have serious ideas about life,
If you make artistic discoveries
and if all of a sudden your head begins to crackle with laughter,
If you find all your ideas useless and ridiculous, know that

IT IS DADA BEGINNING TO SPEAK TO YOU"

Except instead of DADA it is the absolute absurdity of trying to make the rest of the world fit with one's own ideal.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I think it just as arrogant to insinuate that a few hundred years of western history has prepared us for democracy but the long history of the East has left Asians unprepared.

Its only arrogant if you believe democracy is superior to other forms of government . I don't really think it is. Like most things its just a different form.

Well it is superior to authoritarianism, communism, socialism, fascism and anarchy. Although, to be fair, anarchy hasn't really been tried anywhere. But all the others seem to consistently fail miserably as social governance models while democracy plods along changing with the will of the people and occaisionally held up by stupid leaders, but nevertheless, it works better than most models. In all it's forms be they constitutional monarchies or republican democracy or others, democracy has been shown to be the best way for peopple to get along in society.

the other forms don't allow for free thought or expression and often don't allow a person to be individualistic or to have their own little patch to call their own.

this is why other forms of government are such miserable failures so often or become a quagmire of corruption and confusion.

[Andy_S]

What Darth RnR said...good post.

As for Interloper's comment: That is exactly what apologists for North Korea state. OTOH: The Philippines, India, and I am sure many other nations that are not particularly well-off remain wedded to democratic governance. There IS a case to be made for benevolent dictatorship (eg S Korea) but that can only be a temporary state, then peoples will want a say in their government. The problem with benevolent dictators is they often don't know when to go...and become rather less than benevolent.

As for why "Asians" - I can only speak for S Korea, but Thailand and Taiwan seem to have similar problems - don't seem to "do" political democracy* that well:
I put it down to education - not history.

The education system here teaches black and white, yes or no, right or wrong...it is all geared toward taking exams, with multilple choice answers. Such a system leaves little or no room for debate or critical thinking. Needless to say, it does not produce parliamentarians who are familiar with said concepts. This, is why South Korea has an educational deficit of US$5 billion: Hundreds of thousands of South Koreans are sending their children abroad, as they know that the education system here does not fit them to be members of a modern society. (OTOH, it worked fine in producing a generation of factory workers and mid-level managers, but that generation is passed, as Korea moves towards a service-based, knowledge economy)

I grant that Asian culture MAY have something to do with it: Koreans are a people of extremes - no middle ground, winners or losers, no win-win - and the concept of face is very, very important. This makes compromise (which is what democractic politics is all about) very difficult to achieve.

* There is also economic democracy, which would be about shareholders rights as opposed to board/chairman rights, and some kind of balance of negotiation between unions and management. I can't speak for other Asian nations, but in South Korea these concepts are also very, very poorly understood by all related parties.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I think it just as arrogant to insinuate that a few hundred years of western history has prepared us for democracy but the long history of the East has left Asians unprepared.

Its only arrogant if you believe democracy is superior to other forms of government . I don't really think it is. Like most things its just a different form.

Well it is superior to authoritarianism, communism, socialism, fascism and anarchy. Although, to be fair, anarchy hasn't really been tried anywhere. But all the others seem to consistently fail miserably as social governance models while democracy plods along changing with the will of the people and occaisionally held up by stupid leaders, but nevertheless, it works better than most models. In all it's forms be they constitutional monarchies or republican democracy or others, democracy has been shown to be the best way for peopple to get along in society.

the other forms don't allow for free thought or expression and often don't allow a person to be individualistic or to have their own little patch to call their own.

this is why other forms of government are such miserable failures so often or become a quagmire of corruption and confusion.

Athenian Democracy only lasted a few hundred years and was a lot different than what we call democracy. Other than that the next democracies didnt start developing for almost 2000 more years. We have a mere couple hundred years of democratic history. Quite frankly that isn't enough time to tell if it is truly a better system. Also you are judging the success of a governance system by a criteria that automatically biases it toward democracy. If you judge it by "the best way for people to get along in society" you are setting yourself up to be right. One can always argue that all the most advanced and peaceful nations in the world today are democracies and that previous times were much more savage than today and point a finger at the development of democracy as a cause of the "getting along". The question I want to know is why is that a good measure of a government systems success?

[Methods]

You can call it what you want and argue whatever you want, but not even one war was ever waged because of democracy.....