Sen. Maxine Waters threatens to Nationalize

[klonk]

Something we've got to remember is that economically viable alternatives are not going to emerge overnight--the electric car, the hydrogen car or heck who knows, the zero point car. For a while, we are going to need a stopgap supply of fuel that runs in the installed user base of gasoline powered cars.

My favorite is oil shale, such as in abundance in Colorado and thereabouts. Buy American!

Solutions that were not economically viable before become more viable when the price of a barrel of crude goes up and up and up... This is a point that needs bearing in mind. What will drive development of really practical alternatives is gasoline pricing itself out of the market. This is true on the stopgap level (oil shale, alcohol fuels, etc.) and long term replacements of existing automotive technology (electric car, etc.)

Somebody already mentioned that the U.S. has significant oil reserves the Democrats don't want us to drill for. Here I think we need a policy shift in favor of U.S. production--something I've thought for a long time.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

It is not a virtual necessity, it is an absolute necessity to how our infrastructure is set up. Unless magically we change our entire civilization back to some sort of agrarian medeival culture, there is no escaping the use of oil.

For instance did you realize that a fuill 75% of the electricity on the grid right now is from oil and coal burning plants.

nuclear and hydro and other forms of power are near negligible in their contrbution to the overall output. So, it is not a virtual necessity, it is a necessity and it shouldn't be in the hands of private corporations without some form of regulation and a strong social contract.

we as taxpayers support the business entirely by footing the bill for the larger portion of the infrastructure. companies use these roads and oil companies make money off them. what do those corps put back into the society besides selling more oil? Is it on par with what they extract from teh society economically.

the supply argument is bullshit. even the saudis say "wtf are you talking about, we have plenty of oil and there is no shortage in fact we could pump more if you like".

the peak oil thing is a theory that has zero grounding in reality. It's just a thing that's held out there like it's science or something. It's not.

so, it is no surprise that the oil companies have been raping the coffers for the last 7 years or so. Look who's at the helm of the biggest consumer nation on the planet and look at who his buddies are and where he spent most of his time as a businessman. OIl. Coincidence? I think not. lol.

we're all being taken for a fuckin ride and I am as sick of it as the rest of you.

[chud]

I'm not upset with the oil compay's huge profits right now. I live in Texas, oil is part of our economy and I can remember when the oil business here was hurting badly ten or twenty years ago. Lots of people out of work, and slim profits. Now things have changed and oil is up, and everyone wants to blame the oil companies. The real problem is with supply. A lot of the big oil fields are drying up.

And Congress dragging the oil executives in to testify every few months is just a big dog and pony show to make Americans think that their representatives are actually doing something. Bah.

every other commodity that is a necessity is regulated.

electricity for your home, water for your consumption, the food you eat.

Most of the states de-regulated the eletric utilities back in the 90's; I know because I used to install software at plants all across the USA back in the late 90's.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

the utilities that sell yes, but the plants that produce, no.

what i mean by that is, that now you have a bunch of companies that sell electricity, but they still get all their supply from the same sources even though they don't own the hardware to produce. So, retail sales pricing is deregulated, but production facilities are. If they were not, you would pay through the rook because it caosts way more to produce the electricity than what it costs you.

at least, this is how it is where i live and i think there are still many regulated states.

water, same thing and it's gonna get tighter.
food is regulated out the yin yang for obvious reasons.

oil is next and yes, i agree the congress tribunals are dog and pony bullshit that is meaningless.

[klonk]

Some interesting news:

Saudis see no reason to raise oil production
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hkf--m78S6F3LZAcz4sVHGGCQSTgD90MRTMO0

Bush: Saudi Arabia's gain in oil production "not enough"
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-05/17/content_8196137.htm

Oil climbs above US$132 as Russian production stalls
http://www.financialpost.com/reports/oil-watch/story.html?id=535133

And so on. Anyway, the silver lining here is that people are starting to see the status quo is not working. Necessity the mother of invention, and all that. People are getting interested in a problem that for a long time was on the back of the stove.

American culture is spread out and sprawling. Before there were automobiles, you needed a horse to get anything done. For various reasons, including a stubborn independent streak, public transit has not taken off here to the degree it did in Europe. (Our passenger train system is a joke, for example.) It will need a certain ingenuity to get past the present difficulty. We're pretty good at that.

[chud]

And so on. Anyway, the silver lining here is that people are starting to see the status quo is not working. Necessity the mother of invention, and all that. People are getting interested in a problem that for a long time was on the back of the stove.

Yep. Peak Oil is going to force the issue.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

the problem is that peak oil is just words.

there is no science backing it up. It's an idea that was brought about in the last fake energy crisis in the 70s which was also designed to gouge the fuck outta the citizenry.

same dog and pony shows then as well. finally shareholders changed and the old guys at the top died off and prices stabilized again.

It usually always comes down to some greedy motherfucker somewhere who needs to fuckin die before change takes place.

[klonk]

Not sure I go along with the Peak Oil thing. It is difficult to know when something is halfway used up when you do not know how much of it there is. Likewise, people keep coming up with new tricks for drilling and extracting.

I think the current problem owes more to an unfortunate mix of circumstances that have screwed up the world market: New consumers coming on board in a big way, political shenanigans here and abroad, etc.

By the way, has anyone asked who owns these oil company profits? It's people who have stock investments, including ordinary folks' pension funds and 401K's. In the end, it is them you are stealing from if you seize profits.

[chud]

I wasn't sure what to think about Peak Oil theory either, so I asked my brother since he's an attorney in the energy industry. Here's what he had to say:

Most definitely peak oil.

Peak oil theory has multiple layers. It says not just that we are running out of oil, but that we are running out of the easy to extract and easy to refine type of oil--basically the light sweet crude. This is what we had the most of in the US until we consumed most of it, and this is what is in Saudi Arabia and many Middle East fields have. On the other side of the coin, there is heavy oil and oil with lots of sulpher (sour crude), and other deposits that are located in geologically disadvantageous areas.

Basically, Peak oil theory says that, by and large, the locations where oil is geologically likely to be are known. Thus, the only remaining questions are resevoir specific--what type of oil is it (light, not heavy and also is it sweet instead of sour--that is, high sulfer content?); is there sufficient pressure built up, such as natural gas within the geologic formation that will facilitate actually pumping significant quanties out on a regular basis, so that there is reliable production, etc. Geologic formation is a major variable on type of the oil type that determines the economic viability of an oil field.

The main argument anti-peak oil theorists (such as Yergin's firm, Cambridge Energy Resource Associates--CERA) assert against peak oil, and there are several arguments, is that over the next two decades, technology will enable us to reduce the costs of extracting oil fields with unfavorable geology (challenges in the geologic formation where the oil is held) or heavy or sour (high sufur content), thus making many fields economic that once were not. And in a world where oil is selling at $100 a lot of projects become economic. There is truth to this, but it only takes us so far. This will help reduce supply shocks on the down slope of peak oil, but the overall problem looms--the stuff that is inexpensive to extract and also cheap to refine has been tapped.

Some problems are:
(1) Only the expensive stuff is left, and the machines used to extract it are created in factories that require the very supply chain of petroleum products that are dwindling, and becoming more and more expensive.
(2) No giant oil fields have been discovered in over fifty years, and major ones that feed the U.S. (Cantarell in Mexico, Prudohe Bay in Alaska) and Europe (North Sea and Iran's fields) the light sweet crude that our country is set up to refine into gasoline and other petroleumn products (jet fuel for example) are in decline. It takes about 10 years to develop a very large field, and remember, the ones with favorable geology have been tapped, and the giant fields are in significant decline.
(3) I probably should not mention it, because it is only more depressing, but the U.S. refining companies are not set up to refine heavy crude. The substantial majority of plants are built to refine light, sweet crude. Efforts to add refinery capactiy that refines heavy crude is slowly underway (we are very far behind on doing this). So we can't just flip and switch and switch to heavy crude. The U.S. needs to substantially overhaul its refineries in order to be able to switch to heavy crude, so that we can actually refine the heavy crude into gasoline.
(4) The major U.S. oil company are locked out of over 80% of the worlds oil fields. Governments have nationalized oil fields, and the national oil companies they set up (called NOCs in the industry) are increasingly tearing up old contracts or kicking out U.S. and European oil companies all together. So what we have access to that companies can get a sufficient return on is very limited--the remaining 20%, not all of which is the light sweet crude that we need today, next month, next year and several yearts after that. Energy policy needs a massive overhaul in this country but unfortuantely is not going to happen until we have several oil shocks that knock the economy on its ass, and cause the public to clamor for a solution. Maybe then the adults in government can throw the demogogues a few bones, like biofuels, etc. in exchange for the changes needed to ameliorate the short term effects of the oil shocks on the down side of the peak oil curve.

The only long term solution is to figure out another fuel besides gasoline for mass transportation.
If we can find something else to run cars on, the problem can be managed.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

stockholders earnings i have no issue with, but is there anyone on earth who is worth "x" million dollars in annual bonus?

This is where the horrendous disparity is.

[klonk]

A thoughtful analysis, Chud. Thanks for passing that along.

[klonk]

stockholders earnings i have no issue with, but is there anyone on earth who is worth "x" million dollars in annual bonus?

This is where the horrendous disparity is.

It's a drop in the bucket when you look at the scale of the business. Tell you what--why don't you offer to do the job for half price? I am cautious about saying this or that person makes too much money. What business is it of mine? And if I hook into some great deal someday (I'm working on it!) I don't want some sidewalk supervisors coming along and telling me to give them my money--I have too much to suit them.

[fuga]

The refinery business only makes about 5%, largely due to excessive regulation and frivolous lawsuits from said environuts, and that is the real reason why no one has build a completely new refinery in the US in 30 years.

I disagree with you. I don't see the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act as excessive regulation. They are standards from which to do business that protect the air that we breathe and the water that we drink. A lot of your so-called "frivolous lawsuits" are citizen enforcement provisions of these acts which allow us environuts to sue the government to seek enforcement of existing laws.

Refineries pollute. They are underregulated with inadequate air monitoring set up at fencelines. Air pollution hurts people, and especially kids. After years of struggle on one Louisiana community's part, Shell bought out the community and relocated them from the toxic fenceline.

-pete

[nianfong]

the power companies are their own entities, but they are under government regulation. So is water. I think we've long since been due for oil regulation. decades in fact.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

stockholders earnings i have no issue with, but is there anyone on earth who is worth "x" million dollars in annual bonus?

This is where the horrendous disparity is.

It's a drop in the bucket when you look at the scale of the business. Tell you what--why don't you offer to do the job for half price? I am cautious about saying this or that person makes too much money. What business is it of mine? And if I hook into some great deal someday (I'm working on it!) I don't want some sidewalk supervisors coming along and telling me to give them my money--I have too much to suit them.

I cannot agree with this. It is tantamount to worshipping at the altar of mammon.

I think that prosperity is good, but avarice is perversion period. I don't see much in the way of an honest buck in a multi million dollar bonus no matter what the job and it can't be justified in a country where kids go to bed hungry.

and you cannot compare , by any stretch a typical white collar workers 100k a year for being say a top notch business analyst (this is the top 5%-tile of earners in NA)

You need to understand that more than 50% of the wealth is contained and controlled by about 1% of the population.
There is a wealth distribution problem in NA plain and simple.
When the wealth begins to be held and not returned to the economy, that's when you see what we are seeing now.
Recession, lay offs, failure in various industry sectors, gouging by energy corps and indifference by governments who are filthy with funding from same.

It's a huge problem.