Sen. Maxine Waters threatens to Nationalize

[Darthwing Teorist]

Yeah, especially when you see CEO getting huge bonuses while they cut off jobs. I don't know about the oil industry, but it happens almost everywhere else, so I really don't think that the oil industry is an exception.

[nianfong]

the fact is, even if you don't drive to work, everything you eat and wear and whatever is being shipped on diesel trucks and diesel trains. the oil companies are gouging all of us. those fuckers need the hammer of the law. Can't wait for the fucking neo-cons to get booted. it's a sad state of affairs when I miss the original George Bush.

[klonk]

stockholders earnings i have no issue with, but is there anyone on earth who is worth "x" million dollars in annual bonus?

This is where the horrendous disparity is.

It's a drop in the bucket when you look at the scale of the business. Tell you what--why don't you offer to do the job for half price? I am cautious about saying this or that person makes too much money. What business is it of mine? And if I hook into some great deal someday (I'm working on it!) I don't want some sidewalk supervisors coming along and telling me to give them my money--I have too much to suit them.

I cannot agree with this. It is tantamount to worshipping at the altar of mammon.

I think that prosperity is good, but avarice is perversion period. I don't see much in the way of an honest buck in a multi million dollar bonus no matter what the job and it can't be justified in a country where kids go to bed hungry.

and you cannot compare , by any stretch a typical white collar workers 100k a year for being say a top notch business analyst (this is the top 5%-tile of earners in NA)

You need to understand that more than 50% of the wealth is contained and controlled by about 1% of the population.
There is a wealth distribution problem in NA plain and simple.
When the wealth begins to be held and not returned to the economy, that's when you see what we are seeing now.
Recession, lay offs, failure in various industry sectors, gouging by energy corps and indifference by governments who are filthy with funding from same.

It's a huge problem.

Let's look at that for a moment. What do these awfully rich people do with their money? Quite often they buy huge houses with every amenity. That's good if you are an architect or in the building trades.

Then they go and buy a yacht. Good news for naval architects, boat yards, crew and everyone who makes the things that go into a yacht, from keel to truck.

Then they buy a private jet. Aviation mechanics and pilots get paid and so do the folks who build the jet.

The money they have left over they invest, in companies that employ people to provide goods and services you demand. Or they put it on deposit in banks that make people loans to buy houses and so forth.

Some of them give money away in various philanthropic projects. Some of the money is no doubt wasted on overpriced Scotch, vintage wines and art objects of no practical utilitarian value. But this is what I am driving at, the money does not disappear into a black hole somewhere. It goes back into the economy the same way your money or mine gets back into circulation--through spending and investment.

[Mike Strong]

Klonk ! Bitch-Slaps The Truth upside the head.

[nianfong]

if only that were true. usually the lousiest tippers are the wealthy. and they tend to hoard their wealth more than anyone else. if I was getting paid >200k a year, I'd be living pretty close to the same way I'm living right now, and then put the rest into investments and savings. read: into bankers hands. bankers take money and make more money with it, but when they feel like the economy is bad, they hoard it, and then buy the low hanging fruit stock etc. Read: the money doesn't necessarily go back into th ehands of little people, in fact it usually goes back into rich peoples' hands.

If I were getting paid >1M a year, I'd be looking into business ventures. Business ventures that hired people, maybe, but more likely ventures that hired workers in china. read: not going into american pockets.

The most assured way of getting money back into the economy is to put it in the hands of the least wealthy, because they are most apt to spend it to improve their standards of living. that's pretty much all there is to it.

George Bush, sr., himself was against "trickle down economics", and was the one to dub it Voodoo economics. Why would any of us possibly advocate voodoo economics if we're not part of the financial elite?

-Fong

[klonk]

Hum. Yes. All shall be well,if government supervises closely enough, and will pry, and make sure everyone is doing the right thing. We wouldn't want anyone doing the wrong thing. This is the logic of the collectivist, or communitarian if you prefer.

Failed in Russia. Failed in China. Failing, badly, in a reorganized Europe. Do not want.

[Walter Joyce]

Let's look at that for a moment. What do these awfully rich people do with their money? Quite often they buy huge houses with every amenity. That's good if you are an architect or in the building trades.

Then they go and buy a yacht. Good news for naval architects, boat yards, crew and everyone who makes the things that go into a yacht, from keel to truck.

Then they buy a private jet. Aviation mechanics and pilots get paid and so do the folks who build the jet.

The money they have left over they invest, in companies that employ people to provide goods and services you demand. Or they put it on deposit in banks that make people loans to buy houses and so forth.

Some of them give money away in various philanthropic projects. Some of the money is no doubt wasted on overpriced Scotch, vintage wines and art objects of no practical utilitarian value. But this is what I am driving at, the money does not disappear into a black hole somewhere. It goes back into the economy the same way your money or mine gets back into circulation--through spending and investment.

This is not the truth, this is the "trickle down economics theory" that Reagan was so fond of and that has been refuted by economists for years. And the money that this 1% holds on to, and they wouldn't be in that 1% without holding on to a lot of it, doesn't return to the economy, it stays in their coffers.

No matter how you want to try and spin it the plain fact is that wen 1% of the population controls more than 50% of the wealth there is something wrong with the economy.

I'm not sure of those who don't see this have aspirations to join that 1%, but if thats the case face it, if you're over 35 and you haven't got there yet, its not going to happen.

As much as I love this country I am saddened at how we have gone backwards culturally and politically since Jimmy Carter left office. The well known American political and cultural scholar Daniel Aaron was recently quoted as saying that when he views the current landscape of the country he has devoted his adult life to as a foreign diplomat and champion of the American culture and system of values, that he is troubled to find that since the 1980s there has been a growing fascination and preoccupation in this country with money and power.

He finds himself alienated from his own country. He said, "America is promises, but this idea has been eviscerated. The idea of a certain American universalism, of what America once meant, has become this insatiable pursuit of money and power." The interviewer noted that "This is not said with anger but with apparent resignation."

I am not as old as this as Mr. Aaron, but I too feel that the ideals of this country that I learned as a youth have been set aside.

Rugged individualism has been replaced by fascination with the self and and I got mine, now go get yours attitude. A sense of community has been replaced by sectarianism and greed.

Respect for our political system and institutions have been replaced by a convenient cynicism that is used to justify doing nothing, because after all what is the point?

Attempts to address serious issues like the destruction of the environment, the destruction of the middle class by the exporting of manufacturing and service jobs, the exploitation of the working class by credit card companies and mortgage scams are dismissed as unfounded left wing rhetoric that is not supported by science or just good business practices or problems that could be solved with a simple caveat emptor argument.

We have become a sound bite culture that is faced with complex issues and problems that will have long term effects, its time we grow up and find a common ground that will give us back a sense of national identity and community that is not based on the Marlboro man as a faux cultural icon.

If you think it's ok for 1% of the population to control 50% of the wealth in this country, then please explain to me how this is somehow different from have a noble class, the very structure that the founding fathers sought to escape to create a place where all people are recognized as equal and given the same chance to succeed.

If you think that we are all given the same chance to succeed and that money has no influence on the outcome I'll ask you the questions Chris Rock posed in one of his comedy routines.

Where can a black man who graduated college with a C average expect to find a job?

Where can a white man who graduated college with a C average expect to find a job?

And to add to his questions, it seems we have to ask what can a man of mixed heritage, an impeccable academic record and a history of public service expect from our political system?

Rant over.

I don't have the answers, and my questions and viewpoint may be flawed, but I felt the need to express myself honestly in the hopes of learning something in the process.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Let's look at that for a moment. What do these awfully rich people do with their money? Quite often they buy huge houses with every amenity. That's good if you are an architect or in the building trades.

Then they go and buy a yacht. Good news for naval architects, boat yards, crew and everyone who makes the things that go into a yacht, from keel to truck.

Then they buy a private jet. Aviation mechanics and pilots get paid and so do the folks who build the jet.

The money they have left over they invest, in companies that employ people to provide goods and services you demand. Or they put it on deposit in banks that make people loans to buy houses and so forth.

Some of them give money away in various philanthropic projects. Some of the money is no doubt wasted on overpriced Scotch, vintage wines and art objects of no practical utilitarian value. But this is what I am driving at, the money does not disappear into a black hole somewhere. It goes back into the economy the same way your money or mine gets back into circulation--through spending and investment.

klonk.

I am not an eat the rich person by any means.

But I am for fair distribution of wealth to some degree that allows for a society to not have huge gaps because one protion is in utter control over the livelihoods of the rest.

when we are talking about wealth, we are not talking about being rich. There's a difference.

wealth is contained and controlled by very few people. But there are tons of rich folks who spend money yes.

Real wealth is used to manipulate entire economies.

for instance, who's the smart shareholder at GM that decided with his million bucks to lay off a few hundred thousand people instead of reinvesting in alternative energy vehicles?

was that a shareholder or was that a c-level decision? Don't answer, I'll tell you, It was C-level.

shareholders do NOT make the decisions about operatinos of the company they own shares for anymore than a gambler makes decisions on how much the house should pay out versus what they should keep.

that's basic and you can go on all day about how rich people spend money and help the guy flipping burgers by making sure someone buys a burger to ensure that his minimum wage job is secure.

there is disparity. it cannot be denied and it is an ugly thing in a society that should have a little enlightenment under its belt.

so, having said that, how much of your money goes into helping others altruistically?

My wife and I are modestly well off and we make a lot of effort to make our money work in other communities that realyu need it.

do you really think the rish are all benevolent and helpful to everyone because they buy a car or two?
Man, there's a lesson in economics here for everyone.

rich people = ok

wealth hording by major corps and gouging by multinationals = not OK

[Darth Rock&Roll]

by the way, trickle down reaganomics never worked and it makes a shitty model.

people are worse off now after the reagan era.

give it a year and then take a look around. by that time the banks folly of the sub prime rip off industry will have settled and there will be record numbers of poor and homeless people in america trapped in cycles of debt they can never come out of because of financial mechanisms put in place by wealthy companies such as banks.

capitalism has faults. recognize bitches.

[Steve James]

Imo, the problem is not "wealth" in the abstract; it's more about concrete "poverty" and need. However, the people who argue about it the most are in the middle. They're usually fortunate enough to be "working class" and see themselves as the primary victims of economic and political policies.

They ("we") often end up blaming one or the other: the poor or the rich. It's easy to blame either; but those who blame the poor usually think that they can become rich; while those who blame the rich usually have the blessing of not needing or wanting riches anyway.

It's normal; the people who own their homes complain about the taxes; those who don't, complain about the mortgage; their tenants complain about the rent; the subletters complain, etc., and then you have the homeless --who are the real problem ... right? The problem is that, unfortunately, money has got to be part of the solution; so, somebody or somebodies will have to pay.

Makes me think about the saying that "money is the root of all evil"; or, rather, that "the love of money" is the root of all evil. Ok, maybe not "all."

[klonk]

It is not clear to me why anyone would want to hold money out of the economy. It is not even clear that it is possible to do so. Let us say (hypothetically) that I have a million extra dollars. If I buy stocks or bonds, I am participating in the economy. If I buy bank CD's or Treasury notes, I am participating in the economy. If I buy frivolous luxuries like Perazzi shotguns or Ducati motorbikes, I am paying someone for them. Even if I buy a bunch of gold and lock it in a safe, I paid somebody for the gold.

[TaoJoannes]

Klonk ! Bitch-Slaps The Truth upside the head.

Yes, rich people can afford to keep many servants.

I'm all for the rule of hatchet ax and saw, bring em all down to the same level and make everyone work for a living.

[Mike Strong]

To answer Chris Rock :


Just be patient.

The Baby Boomers have already started to retire, and soon they will die, ...

... and then there will be enough jobs, and money, and "power" to go around for everyone; ( black or white ).

Just be patient and let nature take it's course, and DON"T FUCK EVERYTHING UP WITH YOUR STUPID "progresive" PROGRAMS!

[Mike Strong]

Yes, tear everything down and then EVERYONE will have NOTHING, ...

... that's just EXACTLY what will happen.

fUCKING COMMIE !

[bruce]

Klonk ! Bitch-Slaps The Truth upside the head.

Yes, rich people can afford to keep many servants.

I'm all for the rule of hatchet ax and saw, bring em all down to the same level and make everyone work for a living.

i dont know about that? why should a person who made bad choices have the benefit of my good choices?