Nutrition: CLA, Creatine, etc

[zenshiite]

ancients had better physiques for the most part and never had a supplement other than what was in the diet and the daily work.

yeah... i'd have to split hairs with you on that one as well. depends on what your definition of "better physiques" is and who your referring to as "ancients".

if you're referring to anyone who lived prior to the agricultural revolution, then i'll agree that that's the case.

if you're referring to most anyone who lived after the neo-lithic era (after the mass extinction of big game) than i'll have to say no to that. certainly there weren't the levels of corn syrup induced obesity we see today, but if you look at hunter gatherers physiques they don't look like greek statues.

even the most greeks probably looked little like what we see in sculpture etc. artists tend to gild the lily / romanticize their subjects.

i doubt the average individual alive during the italian renaissance period looked much like the statue of david or michalangelos paintings.

I'm not sure Greek statues should be taken as the prototypical body type ideal for the entirety of the human race. So I'm not sure what you're using Greek-influence body image ideals as your base here for what having a better physique means.

Native Americans had a wholely different body type ideal than the Greeks did, for instance.

[D_Glenn]

As Ashe has already pointed out the studies to show weight loss with CLA were using something around 10g's a day which would equal close to 20 pills a day.

Creatine after a workout doesn't make much sense as the idea is to have it there while the muscles are working and as has been pointed out it takes about 6 continuous minutes of work in 1 muscle group before the muscle would require the dietary creatine. I've tried kreakalyn which is newer form of creatine to see if it would make a difference for my zhan zhuang practice but I think it actually makes it harder and the muscles feel sore which is probably due to the body pulling water out of the muscles in order to excrete the excess creatine that has suddenly appeared in the blood.

For weightloss try green tea or green tea extract, and possibly L-tyrosine - an amino acid from protein, plus as Ashe mentioned a good protein supplement- MRM's 100% natural whey is the best taste at the cheapest price: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mrm/pumped.html

Building muscle is the fastest way to burn fat. The best supplement for quick growth -- getting nutrients to the muscle and clearing away lactic acids is probably another amino acid L-arginine in the form of AKG in sci-fit's "nitrox". Plus it has benefits for normal IMA work of standing, striking etc. and doesn't require any weightlifting, it would be good for santishi.

I would avoid almost all the diet pills as there are a lot of chemicals that can damage the thyroid and once you come off the pills your bodies own thryoid hormones won't keep the weight off.

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[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

You're generally right about the CLA dosing for significant results, though it should be remembered that CLA's lypolytic function is strongly dependent on the presence of other factors, so there's not a way to consider the dosing of CLA in isolation.

RE "...as has been pointed out it takes about 6 continuous minutes of work in 1 muscle group before the muscle would require the dietary creatine.". Creatine supplement uptake is not a function of time, but rather momentary intensity of anaerobic exercise leading to temporary depletion intracellularly. IOW, you could work out for two hours straight and still not create sufficient creatine need to trigger uptake of a creatine supplement.

RE: "I've tried kreakalyn which is newer form of creatine to see if it would make a difference for my zhan zhuang practice but I think it actually makes it harder and the muscles feel sore which is probably due to the body pulling water out of the muscles in order to excrete the excess creatine that has suddenly appeared in the blood.". To start with, creatine would be completely inappropriate as a supplement for endurance exercise such as zhan zhuang. As I mentioned previously, conditions necessary for utilization of creatine supplement require extremely intense momentary anaerobic exercise. Any exercise which lasts for at least several minutes will, of necessity, lack the intensity necessary to cross that utilization threshold for creatine.

As a separate point, amino acid supplementation for building muscle can be a good practice, but no single amino acid will produce results in the range that full-range supplementation does. IOW, heavy hitters like arginine or ornithine are okay by themselves, but work much better in a synergistic environment with requisite levels of other amino acids and co-factors like vitamins, minerals and enzymes.

[D_Glenn]

"You're generally right about the CLA dosing for significant results, though it should be remembered that CLA's lypolytic function is strongly dependent on the presence of other factors, so there's not a way to consider the dosing of CLA in isolation."

Yeah I don't know about how to find the right amount of dosing, I guess finding the initial study that showed weightloss would help if one was so inclined to try the stuff, all I know is that it is an expensive supplement and IMO a scam.

***
On the standing, although it is probably in the beginning considered an aerobic exercise, when a muscle is under constant contraction with an ample supply of oxygen (aerobic) the other neccesary ingredients run out at about the 6 minute mark where the muscle is forced into anaerobic metabolism despite still getting a supply of oxygen at which point creatine in theory could help.

Outside of an exercise that requires constant contraction I would agree that it requires extremely intense workouts to benefit from supplementing it, anything short of that won't use the dietary creatine, and it my opinion it's a waste of money.

"As a separate point, amino acid supplementation for building muscle can be a good practice, but no single amino acid will produce results in the range that full-range supplementation does. IOW, heavy hitters like arginine or ornithine are okay by themselves, but work much better in a synergistic environment with requisite levels of other amino acids and co-factors like vitamins, minerals and enzymes."

Yeah I agree, whole proteins, vitamins, minerals and enzymes etc. are crucial but have you ever taken enough AKG to get the nitric oxide pump? The muscles are so swollen with blood that it feels like the skin is going to tear. I don't normally take that much and should mention that if one takes it on its own they should have L-arginine's antagonist on hand: L-lysine, as the l-arginine can bring a lot of heat upwards in the form of acne and canker sores in the mouth, l-lysine will calm it down. For IMA's though AKG is great blood mover and worth it from time to time to see and feel the effects.

Also for weight loss to really occur the liver is going to need to be in optimal shape and I'd reccomend taking another amino acid on it's own: N-AC (N-Acetyl cysteine) especially if you drink alcohol, caffeine, or take OTC and precription pain medicines such as: Darvocet® Endocet® Fioricet® Hycotab Hydrocet® Hydrocodone Bitartrate Lortab® Percocet® Phenaphen® Sedapap® Tapanol® Ultracet® Vicodin® Zydone® or Some Common Over-the-Counter Drugs That Contain Acetaminophen: Actifed® Anacin® Bayer® Select Aspirin-Free Benadryl® Cepacol® Contac® Coricindin® Dayquil® Dimetapp® Dristan® Elixir® Excedrin® Feverall® Formula 44® Goody’s® Powders Liquiprin® Midol® Nyquil® Panadol® Robitussin® Saint Joseph® Aspirin-Free Singlet® Sinutab® Sudafed® Theraflu® Triaminic® TYLENOL® Brand Products Vanquish® Vicks® Zicam®

N-AC is a building block for glutathione - http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/southfacts_cysteine.htm
Also think about supplementing with "Milk Thistle" which helps preserve glutathione in the liver.


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[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

RE: "On the standing, although it is probably in the beginning considered an aerobic exercise, when a muscle is under constant contraction with an ample supply of oxygen (aerobic) the other neccesary ingredients run out at about the 6 minute mark where the muscle is forced into anaerobic metabolism despite still getting a supply of oxygen at which point creatine in theory could help.". It is considered an aerobic exercise entirely, since at no point is there significant anaerobic pathway function. For clarity, the supply of oxygen remains more or less constant as a function of breath rate. The type of muscle cells involved in this activity are different than in anaerobic high-intensity activity such as resistance exercise. The kind used for standing are known as red, or slow-twitch, fibers, and they lack the capability to operate via anaerobic pathways to any significant degree, regardless of the duration of the activity. As lactic acid and other metabolites build up within the slow-twitch muscle cells involved, they simply begin to fatigue and contractile ability drops dramatically. They do not contain the stored glycogen necessary to fuel anaerobic production of ATP.

It is true that, at the point of momentary fatigue of the slow-twitch fibers, the body will attempt to recruit some of the white, or fast-twitch, fibers to assist in maintaining the load on the involved muscles. However, once already in an aerobic mode, recruitment of fast-twitch fibers is seriously inhibited, and those fast-twitch fibers that are successfully recruited fatigue extremely quickly, relatively speaking, and are not suited to conversion to aerobic production. Overall production remains aerobic until fatigue prevents maintenance of the load and the muscles eventually fail.

Further, among those few fast-twitch fibers which are successfully recruited to replace fatigued slow-twitch ones, almost none are placed under enough tension force by the load to overwhelm the rate of creatine replacement within the cell, the condition necessary in order for creatine supplement uptake to occur. The simple take-home lesson in that is that creatine is never a particularly useful supplement for use with any low-intensity activity, in this case zhan zhuang. A far more effective supplement for that particular activity would be the nitric oxide you mentioned, which not only increases intracellular oxygen stores marginally, but more importantly increases blood flow to skeletal muscle, which can slow the onset of lactic acid production and the resultant fatigue.

RE: "Yeah I agree, whole proteins, vitamins, minerals and enzymes etc. are crucial but have you ever taken enough AKG to get the nitric oxide pump?". It is not necessary to get nitric oxide solely through AKG. Further, there is not a functional threshold for the effects of nitric oxide, before which there is no effect and just past which, "the muscles are so swollen with blood that it feels like the skin is going to tear." That kind of result is more a function of dosing.

You're absolutely right about the antagonistic relationship of arginine and lysine, and that is but one example of why I advocated a full-range amino supplementation over supplementing with one or even a few aminos.

Good call on acetyl-cysteine and milk thistle. Methionine and acetyl-choline are also helpful to that end, as is pharmaceutical-grade vitamin E.

[D_Glenn]

On the creatine, thanks I think I finally get it. So in actuality even if it was absorbed and available to the muscle it still is only going to add what? maybe a couple reps at the end of an intense set. Here's an ok link I found: http://www.indoorclimbing.com/muscles.html

"It is not necessary to get nitric oxide solely through AKG. Further, there is not a functional threshold for the effects of nitric oxide, before which there is no effect and just past which,"

I don't think I understand what you wrote there? Production of nitric oxide requires Arginine an essential amino acid. And it plays a role in many different functions in the body - energy, growth, mental function, immune function, etc. I just mentioned the vasodilation as that's one of the results that is easily seen and in an IMA practitioner who understands 'yi' leading blood, it is easily felt, without dosing of larger amounts.


As for weight loss you mentioned carnitine and I was wondering if you could elaborate on the process of converting body fat to energy? Also the role of the others like choline and methionine?

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[ashe]

@ your lack of a sense of humor

touché

[ashe]

here's a timely article from t-nation

[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

RE: "I don't think I understand what you wrote there? Production of nitric oxide requires Arginine an essential amino acid.". Yes. What I meant was that one need not derive their supplemental nitric oxide exclusively through direct arginine alpha-ketoglutarate supplementation, where the concentrations are not buffered. A much milder and incrementally controllable way to get it would be to supplement with arginine-rich foods or, again, full-range amino acids. Interestingly, the milk thistle also can provide an important buffering action against too much sudden nitric oxide production as well as protecting the liver.

RE: "As for weight loss you mentioned carnitine and I was wondering if you could elaborate on the process of converting body fat to energy?". Yes, l-carnitine is a binder for cross-membrane transport of fatty acids. Assuming one is somewhat deficient in that amino (which is possible with high-TFA diets), supplementation can help restore optimal fatty acid metabolism. It is part of the final stage of fatty acid preparation in brown fat lypolysis and metabolic catalysis of body fat for energy.

RE: "Also the role of the others like choline and methionine?". They both play an important role in 'cleaning' the liver by transporting lysed fatty acids out of the liver for metabolic use in energy production. Methionine can also play a role as a buffering antagonist for ornithine. The reason I recommended acetyl-choline instead of just choline or inositol is that it also plays an important role in the creation, repair and maintenance of the myelin sheath in nervous tissue, and has been shown to be significant in the prevention of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's as well as generalized dementia.

[I-mon]

who's your capoeira teacher? what's his lineage? are the girls hot? can you do a backflip?

[DeusTrismegistus]

I don't know anything about CLA.

or much about nutrition in general it seems. (no offense.)

for instance, 24g of protein per day is a RIDICULOUSLY low amount, and absolutely UNSUITABLE for anyone interested in anything more than just surviving, as ALL the RDA's are simply the minimum intake required to AVOID STARVATION.

anyone interested in being in shape should be getting like 10 to 15 times that at least. this means basically eating as much meat as you can afford. (yes i know mike mahler is a vegan but no one on this board is a mike mahler, so if you wanna be lean, eat yer meat.)

anyone who's worried about "gaining too much muscle" needs to get their head examined. if you eat and train PERFECTLY you'll be lucky to add 5-7 lbs of muscle in a whole year, unless you've been completely sedentary and or start juicing in which case you might see 15lbs of muscle in a year.

additionally, muscle is the MOST METABOLICALLY ACTIVE tissue in the body (besides the brain, and viscera, but we can't directly influence those). the moral of the story here, if you wanna get lean, you want as much muscle as possible.

creatine is not just a "sports supplement", recent research shows creatine is a great brain supplement as well.

I took a course on food science in college, very overview type course covering basic nutrition and foodborne illness and stuff. It was cool but only and overview.

If I remember RDAs are determined by taking the amount of protein needed by the 95th or so percentile(not exact but its up there), and then doubling it as long as it is safe to double(vitamin A for example is dangerous at twice the RDA over long periods of time). They don't use a minimum either but an average value.

I don't know how much protein it takes to rebuild muscle damaged from exercise but the RDA should include normal activity which would cover some physical exertion.

As for not wanting to gain muscle, I would like to weight about 215-220lbs so I can try to compete in san shou later hopefully in a light heavyweight class instead of a heavyweight.