Learning a new language

[Juan]

Anyone here investing their time in learning a new language? Ever since my trip to Japan last year I started trying to learn Japanese. I got a CD-rom program for my computer, a couple of books and am trying to learn from Youtube as well. I'm really progressing in my Hiragana reading, I can pretty much sound out alot of the stuff that is written if it is purely in Hiragana. And sometimes I even understand part of what I am reading. I also bought my self the entire first Ultraman series on dvd last Christmas and make a point of watching one episode a week in Japanese. I get excited when I understand a word or two out of the dialog. Mostly I understand the words "watashi" and recognize when they are asking a question when they end in "desu ka." Most of it goes way over my head but I'm tryng to listen intently to it.

I also started trying to learn a little bit of Tagalog. I know most of the bad words but I'd like to do a little more than cuss someone out in Tagalog.

[bigphatwong]

In my experience immersion is the way to go. Go live someplace for 6 months to a year and work/play/interact with the locals. You'll pick it up in no time.

I had the opportunity to live in Holland for 3 years as a kid. Didn't speak a lick of it when I got there, other than cussing (everybody learns that first However, since I went to school everyday and mingled with the other kids I was pretty much fluent in about 3 months.

[Juan]

Dude, I would absolutely love to do that. But time and money are a huge factor. Also, I'm pretty sure my wife would object to us moving to Japan so I can learn the language.

[nianfong]

yeah, immersion is definitely the way to go. or simulated immersion--maybe going to a japanese community every day for a few months.

[bigphatwong]

Yep, that's what's cool about living in L.A. You don't have to. Just hang out in Little Tokyo a lot, or maybe take a Judo class down at the Tenri temple. I'm sure you'll get a grasp on it in no time.

Another good habit to get into is watching Japanese soap operas, and reading lots of manga. For some reason the brain learns faster when both sides are engaged.

[I-mon]

immersion, hanging out with very small kids that speak the language (they don't mind repeating themselves and don't care how stupid you sound) and learning martial arts in the language are the way to learn quickly while still having a great time, IME.

ultraman is a good idea too i reckon!

[bailewen]

Another good habit to get into is watching Japanese soap operas, and reading lots of manga. For some reason the brain learns faster when both sides are engaged.

My Chinese listening skills totally shifted into warp drive after I started watching 40 episode martial arts soap operas. The "some reason" is called a "carrier". It's an activity other than learning the language that carries the knowledge into your brain. It's like learning the language becomes just a side effect of doing some other thing that is more important, in this case, following the soap opera. Extremely powerful stuff. Instead of "studying" your brain just kicks into overdrive to figure out the content and learning becomes organic, like it was when you were a kid learning English which brings me to this:

immersion, hanging out with very small kids that speak the language (they don't mind repeating themselves and don't care how stupid you sound) and learning martial arts in the language are the way to learn quickly while still having a great time, IME.

ultraman is a good idea too i reckon!

Oh yeah. I get into this argument with people all the time over adult learners vs. kids. Basically the consensus out there is that children have this massive advantage over us adults because their brains are more plastic.

[rant]
Bullshit.

They may be more plastic in some ways but they also lack other mental skills. The only thing they really have going for them is what I-mon just mentioned here. The scientific argument says that studies have shown that their brains are structured differently but my counter-argument is that we don't know shit about how those structures work. All we know is that they look different under a microscope. My other counter argument is empirical. Every adult I have ever met who managed to get the same level of immersion as a typical child learned the language much faster. Children generally have less trouble getting the accent right but adults pick up vocabulary faster and don't throw that BS about how many words a day a kid learns. Go and truly immerse in a culture and you will see the same thing happening as an adult. My "Chinese age" is about 10 years old. I would gladly pit my "10 year old" vocabulary against your average 10 year old Chinese kid. Pit me against one without the benifit of a good school and I would beat them. 10 year old kids with educated parents speak better Chinese than me but they have spent more hours in school studying it than I have. Take a kid to a foreign country and he or she will get 10 times the level of immersion their parents will.

They will not have a job where they go and work in their native tongue. They will not be typing English on line (until a certain age anyways) they will not be surrounded by those locals who have the best grasp of English and they will probably be studying history, math, science etc.....all in the local language. They have VASTLY greater demands on them to learn the local language. As an adult, everyone around you will try and accommodate your lack of local language skills. Not as a kid. It's sink or swim. [/rant]

Kids are the ultimate language teachers. They don't avoid correcting you in order to help you save face. They laugh hysterically at your mistakes but they also aren't mean about it (for the most part ) I have learned tons of slang from my kids and gotten FAR more "corrections" from them than I ever did from adults. Even if they don't say anything you can feel the whole class giggle when you pronounce something even just a little bit off.

Kids teh

[nianfong]

Juan, I recommend you watch naruto or bleach like the rest of us. should help too

[Michael]

This site has links to a lot of good books and learning materials for many different languages, including English, Japanese, and Chinese.

[Steve James]

Well, I think you may be comparing apples and oranges. It's possible to generalize that a young person might be able to learn something faster than an older person, whatever it is. But, imo, when people compare a child's learning with an adult's, they are usually assuming that the child did not speak "any" language and is starting from a blank slate. The conditions will be completely different, too. An infant is forced to listen to speech for months, and sometimes years, before it is expected to speak or develop a large vocabulary. Many adults, otoh, start learning a 2nd language when they already have a significant vocabulary in their first language. They can already explain "the world" in that language, and so they have the advantage of being able to translate from the old language to the new one.

So, yeah, an adult may actually be able to learn a language as quickly as (or more quickly than) a 10 year old. That's if all the learning opportunities are equal, and both spend equal amounts of time studying. Otoh, if an adult suffering a brain injury will have to relearn language. Just like healing from an injury to the butt, it might take longer for him to heal than the 10 year old.

[bailewen]

Well, I think you may be comparing apples and oranges. It's possible to generalize that a young person might be able to learn something faster than an older person, whatever it is. But, imo, when people compare a child's learning with an adult's, they are usually assuming that the child did not speak "any" language and is starting from a blank slate. The conditions will be completely different, too. An infant is forced to listen to speech for months, and sometimes years, before it is expected to speak or develop a large vocabulary. Many adults, otoh, start learning a 2nd language when they already have a significant vocabulary in their first language. They can already explain "the world" in that language, and so they have the advantage of being able to translate from the old language to the new one.

So, yeah, an adult may actually be able to learn a language as quickly as (or more quickly than) a 10 year old. That's if all the learning opportunities are equal, and both spend equal amounts of time studying. Otoh, if an adult suffering a brain injury will have to relearn language. Just like healing from an injury to the butt, it might take longer for him to heal than the 10 year old.

I'm actually kind of startled to see anyone agree with my point.

I actually do think it's apples and oranges. I am forced to compare those two thought because, as both an adult learner of a second language and[ as an ESL teacher, I deal with these issues every day. I am constantly bomarded with the argument that children have a natural advantage. It's sort of true but only, as you say, if all the learning opportunities are equal, which they never are.

It becomes a significant issue for me because the argument that children have physical or anatomical advantages always comes up as an excuse for poor language skills in adult learners. So yes, I have something invested in this argument. The belief that adults can never learn a language like a child can is perhaps the single largest obstacle that adult learners of second languages face. The fact that adults can already explain "the world" in another language is, IMO, a disadvantage, not an advantage. I can consent that it is perhaps a mixed bag but over all, the single most important achievement in foreign language learning (aside from abandoning the belief that you can not learn it) is the ability to completely abandon your mother tongue for a while. That's how you can get your clean slate back. Internal translation is a HUGE handicap and even after I stopped translating in my head, one of the few remaining obstacles I have to complete fluency is the tendency to express myself in an "American" way. That is to say, my grammar may be error free but my particular choice of sentence construction still often reflects American habits of personal expression. But this too can be unlearned. It's the aspect I am focusing on most these days as an adult learner of a foreign language, subtle inference and habits of expression.

[David Boxen]

Hanging out with some young kids is best kind of immersion for being forced to learn a language. They'll keep repeating themselves and smack you till you understand what they want you to do for them. They will be happy to act things out for you and won't give up on you nearly as quickly as adults.

[Ian]

learning russian. may learn french, spanish, or something odd next. also need to brush up my german.

[Steve James]

the single most important achievement in foreign language learning (aside from abandoning the belief that you can not learn it) is the ability to completely abandon your mother tongue for a while.

Maybe true if you're talking about an English speaker learning an Asian language. Probably not true for someone who speaks Spanish learning Italian or French. I don't believe it's possible to return to the baby's "blank slate" in terms of language. I do believe it's possible to learn a new language without "translating" or referring back to one's native language. But, I agree that knowing English does not help, say, someone learn Japanese. In fact, it can create an obstacle.