Socialism And Secularism Suck

[Iskendar]

Ok, allow this resident of one of those Eurosocialist hellholes to chime in. I see two typical misconceptions about Eurosocialism (aka social democracy) sticking their head up again. One is "The pay is the same whatever you do", the other are the infamous health care waiting lines. Both are patently false and confuse the European system with a state economy as found in the USSR. The European system is about enforcing and subsidizing minimal standards and nothing more. Outside of those minimal standards, it's a free market, for jobs as wel as for health care.

OTOH, there is indeed a difference in attitude about entrepreneurship between the US and Europe, but IMO this has little to do with religion or socialism, and is in fact much older than the advent of secularism. Its roots are found in the feudal/aristocratic history of Europe. There's still a subconscious "don't rise above your station"-attitude present in many European countries, even though aristocratic rule has been discarded long ago. This also manifests itself in a disdain for failure: if you do try to better yourself, you'd better succeed or earn the scorn of the community. Having your startup company go bankrupt is NOT regarded well and may ruin your business rep for life. This leads to the sort of risk-averse attitude which is not beneficial to innovative enterprise.

Ok, this sounds worse than it is, it's more a cultural background noise than an ostensive behavior, but it can be annoying. There's plenty of high-tech startups in the EU doing wonderful things, but there should be more IMO. The "can do" attitude, now matter how ill-conceived in some cases, is the one thing I envy the US. Something like the X-prize would be hard to imagine in Europe, and that's a pity. WE NEED ROCKETSHIPS, DAMMIT....

[klonk]

@Steve: It's much less complicated than you are making it. I would say people ought fear God and keep his commandments. And government should have no say in the matter. This is self-consistent, despite the difficulty of the term "secularism" referring to two things, 1. rejection of religion and 2. restriction of government's use or abuse of religion or religious institutions. I would say the second is good and the first is not, for they are very different propositions.

[Steve James]

@Steve: It's much less complicated than you are making it. I would say people ought fear God and keep his commandments. And government should have no say in the matter.

I began a different response and abandoned it to focus on those first two statements. If a person does not keep the Commandment against murder, should the government have a say?

This is self-consistent, despite the difficulty of the term "secularism" referring to two things, 1. rejection of religion and 2. restriction of government's use or abuse of religion or religious institutions. I would say the second is good and the first is not, for they are very different propositions.

Okay, I accept your narrow definition of secularism. I can also accept the proposition that the US has a good (#2) type of secularism, and that countries with the first type are "bad." However, iinm, there is freedom of religion in Europe, even Eastern Europe, and in all of South America. This is true even in those Western countries that were formerly involved in religious wars.

Prohibiting the free practice of religion sucks. In our world today, however, these prohibitions happen as much in countries with dedicated religions as in secular countries --who most often permit the free exercise of religion. As I said before, though, specific examples are better than general ones.

[klonk]

@Steve: It's much less complicated than you are making it. I would say people ought fear God and keep his commandments. And government should have no say in the matter.

I began a different response and abandoned it to focus on those first two statements. If a person does not keep the Commandment against murder, should the government have a say?

Bwahahah! You know what I mean! You know, the bit about Congreff shall make no law... But even granting your puckish misreading, I do not think this gets you anywhere. I was in a country long ago where the prevalent ideology was anti-religion, the old USSR, and I assure you, murder was still illegal.

Your persistent, pettifogging persiflage amuses you, I hope.