72 Yr Old Grandma Tazed

[cerebus]

Well, it's easy for people to watch that video and instantly jump to one side or the other. Both sides were wrong to varying degrees. The woman clearly lied in her interview saying she was never argumentative or combative. She was both verbally combative and resisted physically as well. Stupid on her part. At the same time, the cop was foolish to lose his temper (he clearly did).

It would also be easy to say that he was wrong for tasering her. Unfortunately, when she made it legally necessary for him to arrest her (and yes, she did do exactly that), then he was in a very shitty position. She's 72 and resisting arrest. If he tries to physically put her down, pull her arms forcefully behind her back (she clearly wasn't about to let THAT happen without a fight) and cuff her, she would almost CERTAINLY have bruises, and possible broken bones (bones are more brittle at that age). Or.... he can tase her into compliance, which looks and sounds terrible but which can be a better decision all around for both of them. In fact, I suspect that the current policy regarding increased taser usage is likely due to taser usage resulting in a greatly reduced percentage of injuries when apprehending resisting individuals.

It's far too easy for people who have never had to apprehend a resisting individual to overestimate how easy it is. I can tell you from experience that someone who is determined not to let themselves be cuffed and apprehended can, almost regardless of their age or physical condition, put up an INSANE fight. One time, in a TRAINING situation no less, it took me and 3 other officers 10 minutes of scuffling and fighting to cuff a much smaller individual (one of our lieutenants who had volunteered to be an arrest "dummy"). One of our officers was on the ground in the fetal postion for quite awhile from a groin kick, and all the rest of us had bruises, ripped clothing and road rash. I was bleeding from the mouth and the lieutenant was bleeding from the knuckles and had a badly wrenched shoulder. And keep in mind, we were doing everything we could to NOT seriously fuck him up. He was in charge of us and had the power to make our lives miserable if he wished, but he still came out of it looking like he'd been put through a meat grinder. A taser would've been much less damaging to everyone involved...

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Well, it's easy for people to watch that video and instantly jump to one side or the other. Both sides were wrong to varying degrees. The woman clearly lied in her interview saying she was never argumentative or combative. She was both verbally combative and resisted physically as well. Stupid on her part. At the same time, the cop was foolish to lose his temper (he clearly did).

It would also be easy to say that he was wrong for tasering her. Unfortunately, when she made it legally necessary for him to arrest her (and yes, she did do exactly that), then he was in a very shitty position. She's 72 and resisting arrest. If he tries to physically put her down, pull her arms forcefully behind her back (she clearly wasn't about to let THAT happen without a fight) and cuff her, she would almost CERTAINLY have bruises, and possible broken bones (bones are more brittle at that age). Or.... he can tase her into compliance, which looks and sounds terrible but which can be a better decision all around for both of them. In fact, I suspect that the current policy regarding increased taser usage is likely due to taser usage resulting in a greatly reduced percentage of injuries when apprehending resisting individuals.

It's far too easy for people who have never had to apprehend a resisting individual to overestimate how easy it is. I can tell you from experience that someone who is determined not to let themselves be cuffed and apprehended can, almost regardless of their age or physical condition, put up an INSANE fight. One time, in a TRAINING situation no less, it took me and 3 other officers 10 minutes of scuffling and fighting to cuff a much smaller individual (one of our lieutenants who had volunteered to be an arrest "dummy"). One of our officers was on the ground in the fetal postion for quite awhile from a groin kick, and all the rest of us had bruises, ripped clothing and road rash. I was bleeding from the mouth and the lieutenant was bleeding from the knuckles and had a badly wrenched shoulder. And keep in mind, we were doing everything we could to NOT seriously fuck him up. He was in charge of us and had the power to make our lives miserable if he wished, but he still came out of it looking like he'd been put through a meat grinder. A taser would've been much less damaging to everyone involved...

+1 for understanding the situation

[meeks]

yea - I think they were both 'in the wrong'. she started it by being beligerent. he propogated it by screaming at her in anger and shoving her rudely. He could have simply walked her to the back of the car.

I've been in enough situations as a security guard at the state fairs (6 years) where you're dealing with shitheads and I've never once needed to be a complete dickhead. I've always managed to escort someone, even after I've just finished tying them into balloon animals with bagua to get them out of a fight or capture them after a chase. I never once had to hit, push or scream. Always explaining the situation and if I got swung at, catching it in mid air and dumping them onto their knees with their head and arms in a knot. There was always a hundred bystanders watching, videoing with phones, etc. and the 1 time a guy complained about 'physical abuse' someone offered a cell phone video to back my story up.

point is, I was never a douchebag pushing people. If I needed someone out of the way quickly I could move them, but never did I rudely shove.

[Chris Fleming]

What I don't get is why cops are trained to go for the taser, knowing full well what it does to someone, and then DEMAND that they put their arms behind their back while they are getting the shit shocked out of them. From what I've seen, you can't move, so why do they ALWAYS say this and threaten (and often carry it out) to taser you again if you don't?

[Michael]

It's part of the mind-fuck training they receive to intimidate people, whether the cops like this one know it or not.

Tell 'em they're worse than King George III! They won't know who you're talking about, but tell 'em just the same.

[Michael]

Well now I saw the video that CaliG posted, which was substantially different than the one I saw earlier, but still not an unedited look at the dash cam, which I'd really like to see.

[Michael]

So now there's a 9 minute and 53 second unedited dash cam video available.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1wmpm6v0Yc

I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything, so I transcribed the whole thing. I skipped about a minute in the middle after she's lying on the ground and there's not much happening, but a couple of brief verbal exchanges.

After seeing the whole thing, I think it was the Great Grandma who started the trouble by refusing to sign the ticket, demanding to be arrested, then telling the Constable to "give me the fucking thing and I'll sign it". His response of screaming at her then shoving was not the best, but she actually asked him twice to tase her. Wish they'd posted the whole video to begin with.

May 11, 2009

14:20.43 Traffic stop going normally.
14:20.52 Constable, "You came around the curve, coming up the hill, and you accelerated. I'm going to give you a citation for speeding in a construction zone. [inaudible] 60 in a 45 zone [inaudible]"
14:21.10 Winkfein says, "I'm not gonna sign it. Take me to jail, go on, take me to jail."
14:21.13 Constable, calmly, "Step on out."
14:21.13 Winkfein, "72 year old woman, okay."
14:21.19 Constable opens the door and says, "Go right back over there." Winkfein walks to the back of the truck.
14:21.22 Winkfein stops at the back of the truck, close to the white line, and says, "Give me the fucking thing and I'll sign it."
14:21.23 Constable leans over her and screams, pointing away from the road, "GET OVER HERE NOW!"
14:21.25 Winkfein, "Give it to me and I'll sign it."
14:21.26 Constable says, "Ma'am" and shoves her.
14:21.26 Winkfein, while squaring off with the Constable, "Oh, oh! You're going to shove me? You're going to shove a 72 year-old woman?"
14:21.30 Constable, "Ma'am!"
14:21.35 Constable, while pulling taser from belt, "If you don't step back, you're going to be tased."
14:21.37 Winkfein, "Go ahead, tase me."
14:21.38 Constable, "Step baaack!"
14:21.40 Constable puts his ticket book under his right arm, takes taser in right hand, and uses left hand to call in on his radio.
14:21.43 Winkfein, "Hell. 73 year-old woman needs—"
14:21.46 Constable, calmly, "Step back or I'm going to tase you."
14:21.52 Winkfein, loud voice, slowly, "You're going to tase a 72 year-old woman?"
14:22.02 Constable on radio, something about a 304, which is another Constable.
14:22.05 Constable, pointing away from white line, calmly, "Step back [obscured by road noise]."
14:22.10 Constable, calmly, "Step back or you're going to be tased, ma'am." Constable takes a step away, toward the white line.
14:22.14 Winkfein, "I dare you." She takes a step away, then swivels back toward the Constable.
14:22.22 Winkfein comes closer to the Constable while he's on the radio, who says and points, "Step back over there." Winkfein swivels away.
14:22.36 Constable holsters his taser, throws down his ticket book, removes cuffs with his right hand and says, "Put your hands behind your back."
14:22.40 The Constable grabs Winkfein's right wrist and repeats, "Put your hands behind your back." Winkfein pulls her hand away.
14:22.45 Constable drops his cuffs and pulls out his taser.
14:22.46 Winkfein, "I'm getting back in my car." and walks toward her car, but the Constable immediately grabs her and shoves her away from the white line.
14:22.49 Constable, pointing his taser at Winkfein, "Youre going to be tased. Stop!"
14:22.50 Winkfein, "I'm getting back in my car."
14:22.51 Constable, "No, ma'am!" and pulls the trigger on his taser, hitting Winkfein on the chest close to her left shoulder [according to her interview].
14:22.54 Constable, while pulling the trigger on the taser, "Get on the ground! Get on the ground!"
14:22.57 Taser electrification is audible, as is Winkfein screaming in pain, while the Constable presses the button on his radio.
14:23.00 While Winkfein is screaming in pain, the Constable says, "Now put your hands behind your back! Put your hands behind your back or you're going to be tased again!!" Taser is audible.
14:23.14 Constable into radio, "317, I've got one tased."
14:23.15 Constable, "Put your hands behind you back! Put your hands behind your back!!"
14:23.20 Winkfein, "I'm trying."
14:23.21 Constable, "Get your hands behind your back!"
14:23.23 Winkfein, "I'm trying."
14:23.29 Both off camera.
14:23.47 Winkfein begins to speak, the Constable interrupts her, "Lay still!"
14:24.23 Constable, "Be still or I'm going to have to tase you again. Do you understand, ma'am?"
14:24.28 Winkfein, "Yes, sir."
14:24.29 Constable, "Give me your hand." Sound of cuffs being tightened. Both still off camera.
14:25.48 Constable, "Ma'am, I'm going to try and get you up, okay?"
14:26.00 Winkfein, "I have a pain in my back. I'm 72 years old."
14:26.01 Constable, "Yes, ma'am, I understand that. That does not give you the right to fight with an officer on the side of the highway."
14:26.14 Constable, "You want EMS? Would you like EMS to respond?"
14:26.25 Constable on radio, "317, clear for [duty?]."
14:26.59 Constable, "Would you like to try and sit up or would you like to continue to lay there on the ground? Ma'am?"
14:27.07 Winkfein, "I don't think I can sit up. I have a pain [inaudible]."
14:27.07 Constable, "Okay."
14:27.13 Constable, "We're going to get the EMS to come and check you out."
14:29.15 Constable, "Ma'am?"
14:29.16 Winkfein, "Ants crawling all over—"
14:29.16 Constable, "I've offered to try and get you up and you don't want to get up."
14:29.23 Winkfein, "I don't know if I can after [inaudible]"
14:29.28 Constable, "Okay, you want to try and sit up at least. At least going to get you out of the ants? I'll put you on your vehicle."
14:29.37 Winkfein, "There's no way."
14:29.42 Constable, "Get you up like that. That more comfortable for you?"
14:29.54 Constable, "You want to try and get up?"
14:29.57 Winkfein, [inaudible because of radio]
14:29.59 Constable, "You want to try and get up?"
14:30.04 Constable, "I'll help you. One—two—three."
14:30.10 Winkfein on her feet, partially back in view, then back out.
14:30.18 Winkfein complaining about the taser, "I've done nothing wrong."
14:30.29 video finished

[gretel]

I can't resist commenting. Based on my credentials as an old lady, I'd say this woman was so used to intimidating people with her mouth that she used the tactic on the wrong person. I'd also say that the policeman needs training on how to handle recalcitrant old people. I think tazing is extreme, but some of us can get pretty feisty.

gretel

[cerebus]

I can't resist commenting. Based on my credentials as an old lady, I'd say this woman was so used to intimidating people with her mouth that she used the tactic on the wrong person. I'd also say that the policeman needs training on how to handle recalcitrant old people. I think tazing is extreme, but some of us can get pretty feisty.

gretel

True. Ideally all officers would be skilled at not only controlling their own tempers, but at verbally defusing any situation and bringing otherwise combative individuals around to a reasonable point of view. However, for people to whom such verbal skills do not come naturally, the amount of training required to accomplish such a thing would be enormous and expensive...

[cerebus]

It's interesting for me to look back on my time as a cop and as a corrections officer and think of the various types of officers I witnessed in action. Some of the guys I worked with were just naturals. They could arrive on the scene of a horrendous situation about to explode into multiple murders and within just a couple of minutes have everyone nodding their heads and apologizing (not necessarily apologizing to each other, but to the officer). Other officers I worked with could practically turn a "Good morning" from a a little old lady into a call for backup and dog-pile on the person. Of course there is also everything in between... just like all aspects of human society and interaction.

[fuga]

speedtraps and "double-the-fine work zones" are as much about revenue collection as protecting the public.

And, by that logic, so are speed limits? And stop signs? Give me a break. People need to slow down in their cars. You speed, you deserve a ticket.

Some belligerent, 72 year old lady going 60 in a 45 zone with folks working on the side of the road is a legitimate threat to human lives.

[cerebus]

speedtraps and "double-the-fine work zones" are as much about revenue collection as protecting the public.

And, by that logic, so are speed limits? And stop signs? Give me a break. People need to slow down in their cars. You speed, you deserve a ticket.

Some belligerent, 72 year old lady going 60 in a 45 zone with folks working on the side of the road is a legitimate threat to human lives.

+100 Yup.

[Michael]

speedtraps and "double-the-fine work zones" are as much about revenue collection as protecting the public.

And, by that logic, so are speed limits? And stop signs? Give me a break. People need to slow down in their cars. You speed, you deserve a ticket.

Not my logic and I'm not against traffic rules, just bitching about using them as revenue generation. As far as "You speed, you deserve a ticket." LOL, take a look at this web site, which is now defunct but used to be a place where cops off duty wrote in to complain how their "brother cops" actually wrote them tickets for speeding, refusing to give them "professional courtesy".

http://web.archive.org/web/200711292245 ... /home.html

[klonk]

There are very few men suited to be police officers. You must think on your feet and make about a thousand judgment calls a week. The problem is, and it is a very big problem, is that we have too many laws. We do not have enough men of sufficient caliber to enforce all. If we had only a few laws, one Earp brother would suffice for an entire county.

[Michael]

I hate coming off like I'm anti-cop, but part of that is where I grew up and just feeling better when they weren't around. I really do value the cops' work in enforcing traffic laws; these are just standards of being considerate to your fellow man while operating fast-moving machinery.