The dirty, dirty fed...

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The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby shawnsegler on Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:45 pm

We gots to get on this peoples.

Last edited by shawnsegler on Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby bigphatwong on Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:20 pm

Yup, it definitely sounds like there's some under the table shit going on...
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Michael on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:28 pm

So take Bernanke refusing to say where 2.2 TRILLION USD went and then an earlier clip of Greenspan telling Jim Lehrer that the Fed is literally above the law, and what do you have? Secrecy and no accountability to anyone. What do we know about human nature when you have essentially unlimited funds ($14.8 TRILLION and counting from the Oct. 3 "bailout"), secrecy, and no oversight?

Here is Greenspan telling Lehrer the Fed is above the law. If downloading, go to 7:40 to hear the pertinent question and answer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol3mEe8TH7w

JIM LEHRER: What is the proper relationship, what should be the proper relationship between a chairman of the Fed and a president of the United States?

ALAN GREENSPAN: Well, first of all, the Federal Reserve is an independent agency, and that means, basically, that there is no other agency of government which can overrule actions that we take. So long as that is in place and there is no evidence that the administration or the Congress or anybody else is requesting that we do things other than what we think is the appropriate thing, then what the relationships are don't, frankly, matter. And I've had very good relationships with presidents.

Full transcript of interview
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business ... 09-18.html
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Teazer on Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:39 pm

Here is Greenspan telling Lehrer the Fed is above the law.

No he's not. What he is saying is that other branches of government have no oversight over Fed monetary policies. The Fed is following the law as created by Congress & approved by everyone else at the time which gave very little oversight for a valid reason.

People may disagree with that now and want to change the law to something else, but at the moment they aren't breaking the law by following whatever monetary policy they choose, nor by keeping information to themselves.

Personally I'm all for more transparency, but it's wrong to say the Fed thinks it is 'above the law'.

there is no other agency of government which can overrule actions that we take

That, however, is about right.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Michael on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:24 pm

You are fully entrenched in doublethink, Teazer. Are you not able to connect the facts that monetary control is the highest power of any government and that the Fed has this exclusive authority in the US? The banker takeover bill passed on Oct. 3, 2008 states plainly that no branch of government, or court, or any entity whatsoever can review the decisions of the Sec. of Treasury (now Geithner, former Pres. of the NY Fed, the most influential and debt-ridden branch) or the Fed in regards to the literally unlimited funds given to the bankers, now over $14.8 TRILLION USD as reported by Bloomberg almost 2 months ago.

You keep splitting hairs without seeing the bigger picture of what's actually happening:
—The Fed took the money and gave it to the bankers in an internecine revolving door of Fed Presidents/Sec. of Treasury/Wall Street circle of thieves.
—The Oct. 3, 2008 bailout law says that all actions are, in effect, above the law, which is un-constitutional on its face.
—Greenspan says the Fed can not be reviewed by any government agency.
—Bernanke refuses to say where the money went.

The Fed is above the law, they have taken more money than a single year's GDP and growing, as have the other central banks of their respective G20 nations, and in spite of the TRILLIONS, they still need more and yet the "crisis" grows worse.
Last edited by Michael on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby chud on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:36 pm

Teazer wrote:
Here is Greenspan telling Lehrer the Fed is above the law.

No he's not. What he is saying is that other branches of government have no oversight over Fed monetary policies. The Fed is following the law as created by Congress & approved by everyone else at the time which gave very little oversight for a valid reason.

People may disagree with that now and want to change the law to something else, but at the moment they aren't breaking the law by following whatever monetary policy they choose, nor by keeping information to themselves.

Personally I'm all for more transparency, but it's wrong to say the Fed thinks it is 'above the law'.

there is no other agency of government which can overrule actions that we take

That, however, is about right.


I swear to God Teazer, you apologize for the Fed so much I am seriously thinking that you are actually Bernanke. Either that or you work for a Federal Reserve Bank, but you're engaging in some serious manipulation and double speak in your statement. I think you know what everyone here is saying. The Fed is unaccountable and secretive, and the way they operate is WRONG.

Shawn, thanks for posting that clip. I called my congressman a couple of weeks ago and told him to support HR 1207.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Teazer on Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:22 pm

I figure if you're going to criticize the Fed, it might as well be done accurately. If you keep saying stuff that's wrong or unsupported by facts, I'll keep pointing it out.

Like I said, I love the idea of transparency. It'd be nice if the Fed did that of its own accord, but it is not required to do so by the law Congress passed. That still doesn't mean they are above the law or not following it. Incorrectly saying so doesn't strengthen your case any.

Similarly, I'd have been fine with letting more of the big banks go under and sticking it to the bondholders, particularly since changes in government policy tend to be the biggest creators of turmoil in markets. I can understand why the Fed & Administration think intervention is a better choice though, and they have more information about the state of affairs than any of us. Personally I'd be hesitant to do as much as they have, but we'll have to see how it all plays out over a few years to see if they were right or wrong.

When you get down to it, despite all the conspiratorial nonsense about the Fed, the reason it exists as it does is not because of some cabal of bankers controlling the world, it's because the US and most of the rest of the major world economies realize an independent central bank is the best model to use since elected government is patently incapable of making a decision beyond the next election. It's pretty obvious by its proponents that the transparency bill is the camel's nose in the tent to try and get rid of the Fed, and having it pass will probably make the Fed's job harder (though mine a bit easier), but in truth, the chances of actually getting rid of the Fed are laughably remote. If it serves just to get the Fed a bit less interventionist, then great. Given Congress's track record though, I suspect it'll quickly become a tool to press for lower interest rates and more jobs right before Congress's elections.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby chud on Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:03 pm

Teazer wrote:I figure if you're going to criticize the Fed, it might as well be done accurately. If you keep saying stuff that's wrong or unsupported by facts, I'll keep pointing it out.


Fine but I think you're nitpicking, and avoiding the topic.

Teazer wrote:When you get down to it, despite all the conspiratorial nonsense about the Fed, the reason it exists as it does is not because of some cabal of bankers controlling the world,


Forget all that, no one mentioned that in this thread. The thread is about the fact that the Fed is not accountable and will not tell Congress where a very large amount of taxpayer money has gone. We just saw it in the clip that Shawn posted. It's a big deal, and is FINALLY being discussed in mainstream channels (Ron Paul did it before it was stylish to do so).

Teazer wrote: ...try and get rid of the Fed, and having it pass will probably make the Fed's job harder (though mine a bit easier


And what job would that be? I am genuinely interested.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Teazer on Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:17 am

chud wrote: The thread is about the fact that the Fed is not accountable and will not tell Congress where a very large amount of taxpayer money has gone.


That's right. By law they have no responsibility or requirement to notify anyone what they did with the money. I'm sure it's very irritating to Congress, as well as worrying to a lot of people. Their only responsibility is measured by economic growth and monetary stability, but sure there's a concern that the individuals who make decisions there will do some self-dealing. We can try and get more specific on that score if you like, but I'm not aware of any concerns that Bernanke is walking off with the loot.

The question relevant to this topic is whether we and the economy as a whole will be better off knowing or not. The Fed and Administration seem to think not and if the information is shared with Congress will inevitably be known soon to everyone, and probably lead to more volatility and bankruptcies, requiring, at least in their eyes, more intervention and a greater cost. This would be an example of making the Fed's job harder.

Mine would be easier since amongst other things, I do academic research on corporations and related decision making (currently involving mergers and short selling) which are to varying extents affected by movements in financial markets, which are in turn affected by Fed policies. For me, more data is inherently better, since it makes modelling more accurate. Changes in government or market policies make corporate finance research generally harder since structural changes are difficult to model particularly when so many happen over a short space of time. :)
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:38 am

The reason they say nothing is because in actuality, you as a nation have nothing and your money is worthless as it has nothing to stack against, there is no standard, no mark for us money.

the US dollar is the worlds greatest illusion.

so i'd just keep quiet about it for as long as possible and maybe get some time to develop some assets. :)

although I doubt it because that house of cards is bound to fall unless the rest of the world willfully remains ignorant of the problem.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Michael on Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:35 am

The Fed has all the power and control that any one group possibly could and has failed miserably time and again to do the one thing they say they were created for: to maintain stability. They are a failure. It is unmitigated arrogance to suggest that they, and they alone, in the midst of their greatest economic failure, are the only ones capable of understanding the problem. I'm still marveling at your comment, Teazer, that our economy was doing "pretty good" during the last 30 years. It is a classic example of the Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it."

[changing gears]
When you ask relevant questions in an appropriate manner to your government, which is a right guaranteed by the First Amendment, and people answer with deception, anger, or intimidation, that's when you know something is wrong. People had peaceful protests at all 38 of the Federal Reserve branches last November, including Ron Paul and Alex Jones, and they were spied upon by the US Army. They Army was told to be careful not to reveal themselves to the protesters because they "might be attacked."
Army Dispatched in Response to End the Fed Protests

Obama Regulatory Reform Plan Officially Establishes Banking Dictatorship In United States

“The final plan….is expected to sidestep most jurisdictional disputes and simply impose across the board standards to be applied by all financial regulators, according to administration and industry sources, ” reports the Washington Times.


In other words, the Fed, which is already totally unaccountable to Congress, is to be placed in complete control of the entirety of the U.S. financial system, to do as it wishes without repercussion.

As the LA Times reports, the government, in conjunction with the private Federal Reserve, would effectively have the clout to simply seize and take over any company it desires.


“The ’sweeping overhaul’ of the financial system detailed by Geithner on behalf of the Obama administration does not overhaul the system at all,” writes Prins, “giving the Fed a bigger role, creating a ‘council of regulators’ to oversee the existing oversight bodies and allowing the biggest Wall Street players to maintain their status, leaves the system intact.”

“The Federal Reserve is not a fully public entity. It has amassed a set of $7.87 trillion worth of facilities and other entities through which it has lavished cheap loans in return for questionable collateral from the banking system. It has kept the true nature of these transactions a secret despite numerous FOIA requests. And, it has actively promoted the creation of bigger institutions in a chaotic environment, rather than putting the brakes on the creation of these giants,” concludes Prins.
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:23 am

your grandchildren will live in an authoritarian/totalitarian/collectivist communist state.

you might get to end your life in that scenario too if you get to live long enough.

but, and this is a big but, if you prevail in fetching wood and carrying water, no matter what, you'll be fine.

we are slowly being conditioned into acting as voluntary slaves willfully ignorant of our nations actions and place in the world. That's been going on since WW2.

Nowadays, it is so sad to see what people think is important and how much energy they invest into that.

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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Teazer on Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:06 pm

Michael wrote:The Fed has all the power and control that any one group possibly could and has failed miserably time and again to do the one thing they say they were created for: to maintain stability. They are a failure.

Actually it doesn't have control over any of the fiscal side of the economy - i.e. taxation and government spending, nor the regulatory enforcement which was down to the SEC & several other bodies. If you look at where are current problems came from, it's pretty sketchy to say it was due to the money supply. (Unless, of course, you see non-commodity money as the root of all evil -devil- )

It is unmitigated arrogance to suggest that they, and they alone, in the midst of their greatest economic failure, are the only ones capable of understanding the problem.

To the extent that they have access to lots of up to date information that nobody else does, and a horde of well educated people at their beck and call, I would hope they'd understand it better than us at least. Who would you prefer? Some guy on a website with no bio who makes his living doing podcasts?

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it."

There is still research to do, even in a recession.

When you ask relevant questions in an appropriate manner to your government, which is a right guaranteed by the First Amendment, and people answer with deception, anger, or intimidation, that's when you know something is wrong.

When they respond calmly saying they won't tell you, isn't that their right also? Does that mean you then don't know something's wrong, or you then know everything's right?

People had peaceful protests at all 38 of the Federal Reserve branches last November, including Ron Paul and Alex Jones, and they were spied upon by the US Army. They Army was told to be careful not to reveal themselves to the protesters because they "might be attacked."
Army Dispatched in Response to End the Fed Protests

Is this relevant? Some of the comments on that site are priceless btw ;D

“The final plan….is expected to sidestep most jurisdictional disputes and simply impose across the board standards to be applied by all financial regulators, according to administration and industry sources, ” reports the Washington Times. In other words, the Fed, which is already totally unaccountable to Congress, is to be placed in complete control of the entirety of the U.S. financial system, to do as it wishes without repercussion.

Yeah, that's pretty stupid. Basically the regulators are saying 'you know what, we don't have a clue, we'll throw it at someone who does'. I don't recall Bernanke saying he really wanted the Fed to be in charge of all that. More that some agency should, and the Fed was one of a number of possibilities.

“The ’sweeping overhaul’ of the financial system detailed by Geithner on behalf of the Obama administration does not overhaul the system at all,” writes Prins,

Difficult to know exactly what this person is expecting or hoping for.

“The Federal Reserve is not a fully public entity. It has amassed a set of $7.87 trillion worth of facilities and other entities through which it has lavished cheap loans in return for questionable collateral from the banking system. It has kept the true nature of these transactions a secret despite numerous FOIA requests.

We covered this before and it seemed pretty much bollocks and half truths then. Has anything changed I should know about?

And, it has actively promoted the creation of bigger institutions in a chaotic environment, rather than putting the brakes on the creation of these giants,” concludes Prins.

That was a conclusion? Sounded more like an unproven statement. Perhaps an example would be nice?
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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Overlord on Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:14 pm

From a conspiracist point of view:

JP Morgan, US Bank and Citibank own Fed Reserve bank, they also are the one who also lent the money. Citizen of America pay for them.

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Re: The dirty, dirty fed...

Postby Brady on Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:44 pm

I never post due to ignorance, but really like these threads here. Its a good example of how well informed debate with opposing beliefs can lead the middle man to more understanding.

A request though to Michael and Chud (if I may): Seems someone like me would be more swayed to unequivocally agree with you if you could propose a good system, rather than just pointing out flaws in the current one. Ideas?

and to Teazer: Do you think there is no corruption going on at the Fed and they have the average indebted American prioritized in decision making? I personally see a life of loan repayment and serfdom in my future, once I have my degree which makes me highly qualified for a dismally paid job (physical therapy).
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