Mir vs. Lesnar 2

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I hope you guys aren't serious.

IMA training is not intensive enough to stand up in a sporting venue.
That much is abundantly clear right now.

Heck, IMA doesn't seem to standup to any sportive combative venues when it comes right down to it.

I love yoga, I love qigong and I love the practice of Moving Ch'an.
But can IMA be used to fight for real? Well, not really and certainly not demonstratively so far.

great for health and keeping supple, definitely not for fighting though by all indications.

I think someone who trained Xingyi seriously at a young age, and cross-trained with some ground fighting stuff, could come in and do well in the UFC.

well that would be mma wouldn't it? lol. xingyi alone would fail in ufc as would any stand alone art because no individual art addresses all ranges of fighting.
hence mma because it is the only way to address all the ranges and take into account as many ways to train for occurring variables that there can be.
xingyi as a fist method would be fine, probably a little unorthodox too as far as what people are used to having thrown at them.
On the whole though, I think anyone who wants to fight amateur or professional in an all ranges competition cannot stick to any one art and has to pursue training that will address all possible positions.

[Chris Fleming]

They scoffed at traditionalists (especially karate and tkd) and ridiculed WWE athletes. Now they've got Machida and Lesnar ... whoops, gotta flip the script. All we need now is for one of the ima masters to come and really put them all in their places.

I know, it's going to happen. I can't wait.

Working on it.

[Bhassler]

But can IMA be used to fight for real? Well, not really and certainly not demonstratively so far.

great for health and keeping supple, definitely not for fighting though by all indications.

Are you talking about MMA sporting venues specifically with MMA rules, or are you saying that categorically IMA are useless as fighting arts?

[Steve James]

Whoa, traditional imas are just as effective (or not) as traditional emas. If Lesnar said he studied xingyi and said his hammerfists were modified pi chuans, would people say "See, xingyi is the real deal." Man, Brock could make a bigger fortune if he learned some taichi.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

BHassler-

I have not seen IMA effectively used in a fight.

Not saying they're useless, just saying that there is no evidence put forth in the here and now that indicates that they are worth training to that end.

mma rules etc are irrelevant because lets face it, a ufc match is about as close or closer to a street fight than whatever is provided in other venues. If you can't find a huge chunk of stuff to use in your training regimen to fit that venue, then I am gonna have to say you are training in a vacuum and your regimen is inferior. Nothing in mma says you can't punch a guy in the face as hard as you can, or kick him in the head, or choke him out, or lock him up or break his arm or any of that. Is you IMAQ rendered useless because you can't fishhook, eye gouge or drop elbows on the back of someones neck? Because that's pretty much the only dirty stuff that's taken out.

Worth mentioning as well that vale tudo has been around for a while and no IMA has ever stepped up to that and there are no rules there.

so if ima wants to create a venue where as much visceral combat is occurring, then all power to them. Right now, there is NOONE demonstrating the fighting applicability or Fighting value of IMA in ANY venue.

Push hands is nonsense for the most part, san shou is not ima, there aren't any realistic modalities of expressing the martial value of IMA and it's a crying shame in my opinion.

Too many excuses are put out in regards to all kinds of martial arts that don't do well when up against real pressure which effectively renders those people using them ineffective and their methods obsolete.

so all it takes is someone to step up and so far nothing? yeah, I'd have to say that so far nobody is showing IMA to be useful in a fight for real or in the ring.

there has not been one Kungfu fighter in the last 50 UFC's, Prides, NHB, or what have you that can honestly say they used a traditional path to victory.

doesn't that make any of you wonder or question the validity of your training methods? It's made me completely change and add to mine in the last 6 years I'll tell you that much.

I'm a kungfu guy and I'd love to beat an mma player of the same training time and quality as me. So far, I have not been able to accomplish this though. How about you?

[DeusTrismegistus]

Size, strength, and speed are attributes IMO. They are trainable attributes though. You can increase all of them through training, weight lifting for size and/or strength, and other things for speed. However by themselves they are not skills. Skill is knowing how to use your attributes most effectively. Lesnar is admittedly an amazing specimen because he combines all three attributes at such a high level. Its the overwhelming nature of his physical attributes that make up for lack of skill. Which he is a skilled wrestler, he is good at ground positioning and controlling someone from the ground, but his skill in other areas is lacking. Lesnar is also good about controlling the fight, which is mainly due to attitude. He puts himself into position so that his best attributes are where they can benefit him the most. A smaller skilled fighter will beat him when they can turn the tables and keep Lesnar where they want him.

However the type of training it takes to develop strategies to fight with bigger, stronger, opponents are lacking in comp sports due to the weight class restrictions. Heavyweight is the only division where you can see a 40lb difference in size. Thats not insurmountable. Its not even that large considering the trouble some of the guys who I outweigh by 100 lbs give me. Everyone wants to fight like they are big and strong and have long limbs. But with that tactic you will always be at a disadvantage when clashing with someone who is bigger and stronger and longer. Size is a relative thing and you can't fight someone bigger than you the same way you fight someone smaller than you. Strategy and tactics and positioning all change according to the circumstances. A heavyweight will have a very hard time fighting as the smaller fighter simply because they are not used to it.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

If you are entering carded venues, you can be assured that everyone there has been developing attributes and honing skills.

The same can not be said of your average club.

You'll get a hodge podge of people, some big with no skill and no strength really and some small with lots of strength and a little skill etc etc. It's all over the map with maybe 1 standout player in the whole club, maybe 2, maybe more if it's a fighting club that puts out actual fighters.

In your standard garden variety MA club, it's all about health and fitness, body awareness, etc etc.
Most do not take physical confrontation anywhere near as seriously as they should and a great deal of the people attending ma clubs do not want to experience real pressure on them.

I've spent more than my fair share of time in traditional training atmospheres and while not completely useless in regards to physical combat and confrontations, you will get more out of a ring training type mma club in a shorter period of time with attributes analysis and lots of training that will kick your ass more than stepping drills and sitting in a horse stance will. lol

[Bhassler]

BHassler-

I have not seen IMA effectively used in a fight.

Not saying they're useless, just saying that there is no evidence put forth in the here and now that indicates that they are worth training to that end.

mma rules etc are irrelevant because lets face it, a ufc match is about as close or closer to a street fight than whatever is provided in other venues. If you can't find a huge chunk of stuff to use in your training regimen to fit that venue, then I am gonna have to say you are training in a vacuum and your regimen is inferior. Nothing in mma says you can't punch a guy in the face as hard as you can, or kick him in the head, or choke him out, or lock him up or break his arm or any of that. Is you IMAQ rendered useless because you can't fishhook, eye gouge or drop elbows on the back of someones neck? Because that's pretty much the only dirty stuff that's taken out.

Worth mentioning as well that vale tudo has been around for a while and no IMA has ever stepped up to that and there are no rules there.

so if ima wants to create a venue where as much visceral combat is occurring, then all power to them. Right now, there is NOONE demonstrating the fighting applicability or Fighting value of IMA in ANY venue.

Push hands is nonsense for the most part, san shou is not ima, there aren't any realistic modalities of expressing the martial value of IMA and it's a crying shame in my opinion.

Too many excuses are put out in regards to all kinds of martial arts that don't do well when up against real pressure which effectively renders those people using them ineffective and their methods obsolete.

so all it takes is someone to step up and so far nothing? yeah, I'd have to say that so far nobody is showing IMA to be useful in a fight for real or in the ring.

there has not been one Kungfu fighter in the last 50 UFC's, Prides, NHB, or what have you that can honestly say they used a traditional path to victory.

doesn't that make any of you wonder or question the validity of your training methods? It's made me completely change and add to mine in the last 6 years I'll tell you that much.

I'm a kungfu guy and I'd love to beat an mma player of the same training time and quality as me. So far, I have not been able to accomplish this though. How about you?

Your point is well taken, but I have to disagree that "there is no evidence put forth in the here and now that indicates that they are worth training to that end." There are a lot of guys like Luo Dexiu and others who readily and convincingly demonstrate real world fighting ability with their arts, albeit not in a ring. I don't expect anyone to share that viewpoint with me because it comes from my own personal experiences and is not something that can be convincingly posted as evidence in a debate, but I would say that if a person were genuinely interested in IMA for fighting, resources are definitely available beyond what's presented to the mass markets. Similarly, the caveat with MMA as a standard for "real" fighting is at least to a degree false because there is no threat of weapons, multiple opponents, dangerous surfaces, etc. Even if the floor of the ring were a standard hardwood floor (nothing too gnarly), I'm fairly certain certain tactics like jumping into a guard, riding a body slam to the floor, etc. would go away, and throwing skills might be more valued because they would actually be damaging rather than just impressive. Again, this certainly doesn't answer your assertion that there's not anything closer to real world fighting than MMA. So I don't disagree with you on any particular point, I guess I'm just not fed up with searching for the answers within the context of IMA and not ready to switch to MMA because of it.

Thanks for taking the time to explicate your views on the matter.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Your point is well taken, but I have to disagree that "there is no evidence put forth in the here and now that indicates that they are worth training to that end." There are a lot of guys like Luo Dexiu and others who readily and convincingly demonstrate real world fighting ability with their arts, albeit not in a ring. I don't expect anyone to share that viewpoint with me because it comes from my own personal experiences and is not something that can be convincingly posted as evidence in a debate, but I would say that if a person were genuinely interested in IMA for fighting, resources are definitely available beyond what's presented to the mass markets. Similarly, the caveat with MMA as a standard for "real" fighting is at least to a degree false because there is no threat of weapons, multiple opponents, dangerous surfaces, etc. Even if the floor of the ring were a standard hardwood floor (nothing too gnarly), I'm fairly certain certain tactics like jumping into a guard, riding a body slam to the floor, etc. would go away, and throwing skills might be more valued because they would actually be damaging rather than just impressive. Again, this certainly doesn't answer your assertion that there's not anything closer to real world fighting than MMA. So I don't disagree with you on any particular point, I guess I'm just not fed up with searching for the answers within the context of IMA and not ready to switch to MMA because of it.

Thanks for taking the time to explicate your views on the matter.

I don't know Luo Dexiu, but there are a few vids on youtube and none of them demonstrate anything more than forms and compliant people standing there while he makes the moves on them. Nothing with resisting opponents etc. Anyway, if you have hands on with the guy, I am not going to discount that, I'm sure there are likely in this day and age a few people who practice IMA who are genuinely trying to take that into a carded venue. They just haven't hit the radar yet.

I don't agree that resources for using IMA as a genuine fighting art in any context are readily available. IMO you would be hard pressed to find any IMA teachings that are being developed for direct h2h combat in a contest venue similar to the pressure in an mma contest.

I can tell you that a boxing ring is not a soft place at all. If you get thrown on that canvas, you are going to feel that throw. you are not getting tossed on a big rubber mat, you're getting tossed on a wooden floor.

For weapons, I think I did say that you can't get closer to a real fight without having to worry about multiples or weapons. I don't think anybody here has realistically faced weapons using IMA for that matter anyway. And besides, whose martial arts system isn't mostly kick,punch,throw or lock anyway?

mma doesn't have weapons either. How much of your IMA is focused on disarming guns, swords or knives and how much is essentially empty handed stuff?

It's not just IMA either, it's virtually all Traditional MA that refuse to deal with :

- fully resistant training over compliance training of given techniques to see if they actually work in a realistic situation
- all ranges from stand up to clinch to ground. Many arts will have one or two, but not all.
- regular sparring at contact levels where attacks and what it takes to defend against them are fully understood.

I'm not here to diss IMA or TCMA. I want to see them step up off the granola factory floor and get with the realism.

If you say your art can do this or that, then fine. Show your art doing this or that. If you say someone from your art can represent in that venue, then please show.

martial art is martial and mma as a sport is the perfect venue to show your shit is for real.

One can only make excuses for so long as to why they can't come in the pool and swim with the other kids.

[everything]

before modern mma, but mike patterson, peter ralston, tim cartmell, william chen, and some of their students have competed in various full contact or san shou matches and been champions in those matches, relying in part or largely on ima. just by sheer numbers and media exposure nowadays, most people aren't going to have the ima background, but more likely muay thai + bjj + wrestling. not to say people with ima winning sport fights won't happen again. with machida's success, people may re-examine karate (would be very smart to do at the least for opponents and their coaching staffs). the most hard-core karate style kyokushin has the yiquan connection already via taikiken. so who knows.

[Bär]

I never figured Darth as a nutrider, but here we are.

[Steve James]

You can't beat karate; you can beat Machida. The question is not whether one can use an ima; the question is whether you can use the training that you've had in the given situation. The problem, imo, lies in thinking that any martial art is magic or has the ability to transform you; when it is you who will transform the martial art into something useful.

[Steve James]

Re: the last fights in question. I just saw them, and I just had to add that Lesnar and Henderson were really pissed off at their opponents. I.e., these fights were about more than styles.

[chud]

Chastened Lesnar: 'I screwed up'

Champion apologizes for WWE-style antics

By ADAM HILL
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL

Brock Lesnar was every bit the company man late Saturday when he arrived at the UFC 100 news conference about an hour after his main-event victory over Frank Mir.

The change in behavior apparently was the result of a lecture delivered by Ultimate Fighting Championship president Dana White in the bathroom of Lesnar's locker room.

"Dana came back and we had a whip-the-dog session," Lesnar said. "I screwed up and I apologize."

The heavyweight champion expressed his remorse for postfight antics that included taunting his beaten opponent, flipping both of his middle fingers to the crowd, discussing his bedroom plans for the evening and taking a shot at the company's biggest sponsor, Bud Light.

Lesnar got the message from the boss, as he entered the news conference drinking from a Bud Light bottle.

"I acted very unprofessionally after the fight and I'll leave it at that," Lesnar said. "I apologize to Bud Light. I'm not biased. I drink any beer. Tonight, I'm drinking Bud Light all night."

Lesnar even offered a joke.

"I love Bud Light. I'm even going to get me some horses," he said. "Clydesdales."

White was not amused with the in-cage antics of the former professional wrestler.

"That's not who Brock really is, and what he did out there is not real," he said. "You don't have to act like someone you're not. This isn't the WWE. I'm not trying to get someone to act all crazy so we'll do more pay-per-views. That's not what this sport is about."

But the fact remains, Lesnar's mischievous behavior is likely to make him even more of a draw for the UFC. Heels can sell just as much as faces, to borrow the wrestling terms for villains and heroes.

"I went into the entertainment business for a while and I guess there's a little bit of that still in me," Lesnar said. "You guys ask me all the time if there's anything that I can drag over from WWE and I guess you've seen a little bit of that (Saturday). I'm used to selling pay-per-view tickets. I come from a business that is purely entertainment. I'm just trying to do my job."

Whether his actions will help the company's bottom line will be seen the next time Lesnar headlines an event.

The most likely scenario would have him taking on the winner between unbeaten prospects Cain Velasquez and Shane Carwin, but they don't fight until Oct. 24 in Los Angeles, so Lesnar would not have a fight for at least six months. He also could fight Mir a third time or face the winner of the Randy Couture-Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira fight scheduled for Aug. 29 in Portland, Ore.

But the most intriguing opponent for Lesnar would be Fedor Emelianenko, who is under contract with Affliction and will fight Josh Barnett on Aug. 1 in Anaheim, Calif.

Emelianenko is widely regarded as the best fighter in the world. Several attempts by White to reach a deal with the Russian star have failed to yield a contract.

"This whole Fedor thing has been going on and on and on. I keep saying this and that about him and he keeps waiting," White said. "Eventually Fedor's going to be here. I want Fedor to come to the UFC. We'll end up getting the deal done and then it will be Brock vs. Fedor."

That fight undoubtedly would sell well, and some of those purchases likely would be a result of Lesnar's antics. That makes him the ultimate company man.

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/50615287.html

[Bhassler]

I don't know Luo Dexiu, but there are a few vids on youtube and none of them demonstrate anything more than forms and compliant people standing there while he makes the moves on them. Nothing with resisting opponents etc. Anyway, if you have hands on with the guy, I am not going to discount that, I'm sure there are likely in this day and age a few people who practice IMA who are genuinely trying to take that into a carded venue. They just haven't hit the radar yet.

I'm going off of first hand contact. In fairness, I haven't met any really great MMA guys, so I can say that there are IMA guys who are crazy good and powerful fighters, but I can't make any comparison to top flight MMAers.

I don't agree that resources for using IMA as a genuine fighting art in any context are readily available. IMO you would be hard pressed to find any IMA teachings that are being developed for direct h2h combat in a contest venue similar to the pressure in an mma contest.

I don't suggest that they're easily found, just that it's possible for those who are interested. I've come across about half-a-dozen in Denver, CO that are real fighters using IMA, and a couple more CMA guys on top of that, and Denver's not exactly SF or New York, so I'm guessing there are guys around in a lot of other places as well. You're absolutely correct that none of those guys is competing in or training for the competition circuit, with the exception of Willem de Thouars' guys, and the ones they train are typically MMA guys who come over to their school for cross-training in a traditional system.

I can tell you that a boxing ring is not a soft place at all. If you get thrown on that canvas, you are going to feel that throw. you are not getting tossed on a big rubber mat, you're getting tossed on a wooden floor.

I thought that most rings had sprung floors. It makes a big difference.

For weapons, I think I did say that you can't get closer to a real fight without having to worry about multiples or weapons. I don't think anybody here has realistically faced weapons using IMA for that matter anyway. And besides, whose martial arts system isn't mostly kick,punch,throw or lock anyway?

mma doesn't have weapons either. How much of your IMA is focused on disarming guns, swords or knives and how much is essentially empty handed stuff?

It's not so much that IMA has a bunch of methods that MMA doesn't for dealing with those elements outside the ring as it is that the threat of weapons, multiples, etc. impacts the desirability of (for example) going to ground. A sporting context strategically has different demands that a street scenario.

It's not just IMA either, it's virtually all Traditional MA that refuse to deal with :

- fully resistant training over compliance training of given techniques to see if they actually work in a realistic situation
- all ranges from stand up to clinch to ground. Many arts will have one or two, but not all.
- regular sparring at contact levels where attacks and what it takes to defend against them are fully understood.

I'm not here to diss IMA or TCMA. I want to see them step up off the granola factory floor and get with the realism.

If you say your art can do this or that, then fine. Show your art doing this or that. If you say someone from your art can represent in that venue, then please show.

martial art is martial and mma as a sport is the perfect venue to show your shit is for real.

One can only make excuses for so long as to why they can't come in the pool and swim with the other kids.