Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby neijia_boxer on Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:14 pm

20 years ago as I started Tai chi, my first instructor made me know that TCM diet other wise the QI would not develop. I am so glad for his guidance and introducing me to his Chinese doctor AMY.

more diet info here:
video on chinese medicine and diet Dr. Amy

http://www.sacredpeaks.net/media.htm
info I share:
http://www.polariswushu.net/diet.html
http://www.polariswushu.net/TCM.html
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby zenshiite on Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:51 pm

Darth Rock&Roll wrote:Bhassler-

attention, your argument fell to pieces and shattered on the floor with this statement:

"ALL of science is guessing or attribution given to a process or a substance based on a percieved result."


No, science is NOT guessing at all.

It is observation, replication, determination.

Everything that science holds to be true, it does so because it can repeat the process using a method that was devised during the observation and measurement portion of the study. Measurement of the observation is solidified through replication of the event.

Not really a lot of guess work to come up with the analysis of the result.
Science can in turn predict results.

Aspirin will do "x". This was determined through science.

"Egg whites are cold" is determined through...??? how is it determined?
"eating a salad shuts off your metabolism" was determined how?
"putting a needle in your head will cessate your smoking cravings" how does that work?
"putting a needle in your distal point will alleviate a ruptured disk in your back", no it won't, and how is that determined.

and on and on it goes and don't even start on 5 element theory which is a grossly misappropriated and often entirely incorrect way of going about things.

I'm not saying western alopathic medicine is the only way to go and I support homeopathy and naturopathy because it does do a lot to ease peoples symptons through guiding them into better living tailored to their needs. But when it comes to treating the acute, I'll take western medical procedures over mystical practices any day!

Who here has undergone any surgery using tcm for anesthetics?
Who has undergone any acute treatments using TCM?

Preventative measures are another thing entirely. Sorting your diet out and such can be a game of hit and miss, trial and error and it doesn't matter which path you choose and in fact, how old you are has a lot of pull in what you can and cannot eat as well.

just rambling now though... :)

In summary, I don't trust TCM and i do trust empirically measured methods of medicinal practice.
I get massages because they feel good.
I alter my diet because something I'm eating isn't making me feel good.
I can't be bothered with acupuncture or various concoctions, de-concoctions, draughts etc when there is a known remedy readily available at a pharmacists.

why eat a bunch of roots and bug wings when you can simply take an imodium? Know what I mean?

people get silly about asian medicine (including ayer vedic from india), including the practitioners at times.

Not completely devaluing it. But there is a place for everything and western medicine has made the greatest advances so far by all measures.

eastern stuff is generally for chronic symptoms
western medicine is for acute



You know, I'm wondering where you think TCM food guidelines came from. Were they just made up one day out of the blue? Honestly. It's not only Eastern medicine(TCM and ayurveda) that contains this stuff. There's a long tradition of classifying foods according to hot, cold, damp, dry in the Middle East and surely in ancient Europe and Africa as well. People observed according to what they were able to observe in their day with the resources at hand.

Furthermore, what are your criteria for good or ill repute? Remedies which have been available for millenia with long term results and relatively few adverse effects, or remedies which have been available for maybe a couple centuries in some cases with well documented adverse effects? How many drugs are advertised on television as the great cure for whatever hundred symptoms they give you a list of and then tell you all the pretty hideous potential side effects from the drug? The antacid will mess up your digestive system while trying to remedy the symptom of a larger problem, while the herbal tonic and dietary therapy will remedy the whole problem.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby Brady on Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:45 pm

zenshiite wrote:
You know, I'm wondering where you think TCM food guidelines came from. Were they just made up one day out of the blue? Honestly. It's not only Eastern medicine(TCM and ayurveda) that contains this stuff. There's a long tradition of classifying foods according to hot, cold, damp, dry in the Middle East and surely in ancient Europe and Africa as well. People observed according to what they were able to observe in their day with the resources at hand.

Furthermore, what are your criteria for good or ill repute? Remedies which have been available for millenia with long term results and relatively few adverse effects, or remedies which have been available for maybe a couple centuries in some cases with well documented adverse effects? How many drugs are advertised on television as the great cure for whatever hundred symptoms they give you a list of and then tell you all the pretty hideous potential side effects from the drug? The antacid will mess up your digestive system while trying to remedy the symptom of a larger problem, while the herbal tonic and dietary therapy will remedy the whole problem.


Good post zenshiite. I've been fortunate to be raised with a good Jewish diet and my mother would often give me food based upon concepts very similar to TCM. In the complex realm of diet and its effects on humanity, reductionist science is a dangerous practice.
FWIW, things like nutrition typing and blood testing for diet, new trends in modern day nutrition circles, are just watered down versions of these traditional systems.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby zenshiite on Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:14 pm

I just don't get this notion that traditional sciences aren't based upon a scientific method that is in accord with their own principles. There-in lies the problem with the worship of modern science as the end all be all of knowledge and how to gain it and evaluate it and phenomena. If some thing or method doesn't fit within the narrowly(and ill) defined box of modern science then it's not of value or even real. It's a crock, and flies in the face of millenia of human knowledge.

Furthermore, life expectancy is no way to measure the success of modern science or traditional science. Or rather, I should say, Europe and America having the longest life expectancies in the world is hardly a means of measuring the quality of those lives. It merely measures quantity. And judging by the general levels of satisfaction in life, Americans have a tendancy to be behind in that regard. Furthermore, the supposition that North America and Europe have longer life expectancies because of modern science and medicine is ill advised because there's almost no country in the world where traditional science and medicine is used exclusively and it's not been well preserved in many communities. Let alone the notion that all people in a given society are actually following the wisdom of their culture's traditional science and medicine.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:56 pm

guys, you can look at any culture, anywhere in the world and whatever the traditional diet is there, it is the best one for you!

This is why I caution against nutrition advice in general.

everyone and i mean every single one of us is not a template for the next.

we cannot follow the same diets as each other and we can't just change our diet overnight because we think a different one will be better for us.
Coconuts. Bananas. Mangos. Rice. Beans. Water. It's good.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:01 pm

Darth, for a Doctor your bedside manner is terrible- You're fat because you eat too much and don't move enough. Quit eating to alleviate your boredom or to quell your damn emotional surges. Now get out of my office you fat bastard!


TCM looks at the direct link between what they're eating and how this is effecting their "emotional surges", either way after symptoms have manifested it doesn't matter what initially started the obesity, the food or the emotions, the treatment is essentially the same- treat mind and body simultaneously as it's all interconnected in TCM.

The west is becoming a culture without culture, why do we eat what we eat- a commercial told us it was good, or because our mother's mother's mother passed down that this will keep you healthy. You're right on caution against nutritional advice because it's likely motivated by pure greed.

Herbal stews are a staple of the Chinese family, kept private because they're usually for specific gender related ailments and the Chinese are a prude people but you only have to be of the human race to benefit from them.

.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby zenshiite on Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:47 pm

Darth Rock&Roll wrote:guys, you can look at any culture, anywhere in the world and whatever the traditional diet is there, it is the best one for you!

This is why I caution against nutrition advice in general.

everyone and i mean every single one of us is not a template for the next.

we cannot follow the same diets as each other and we can't just change our diet overnight because we think a different one will be better for us.


You do realize that TCM actually recognizes the differences between people versus the general Western medical template which basically says "we are just biological machines" and then assigns a standard model that's supposed to fit all people. TCM, in fact, takes into account a greater range of phenomena and circumstances than most any Western doctor will.

D Glenn is giving general guidelines, one's which may or may not be applicable to all people... but they do work.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:45 pm

Yes. I thought I made clear in my first post that it was just one very generalized example, if I could edit that post I guess I would add 'some' in front of the words: 'overweight people'.

Didn't expect to be taken so literally. Maybe it comes from Darth's background- where a pharmaceutical drug is prescribed and is to be taken "every single day for the rest of one's lifetime." While in TCM- herbal prescriptions, treatments, and food therapy is all short term, some herbs are only to be taken for a week at the longest, some tonic herbs for up to 3 months.

Did I mean: "All overweight people should never eat a salad again for the rest their life?" Answer: No.

***


"Aspirin will do "x". This was determined through science."

White willow bark also does "x" (with less side-effects). What method of human trial determined this?


.
Last edited by D_Glenn on Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby bigphatwong on Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:22 pm

I think jalapenos are Fire, because they burn like the Jedi coming out...
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby RobP2 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:01 am

The problem I always have with this Western / Eastern thing is that it is so vague and generalised as to be non-sensical. Where is the dividing line? Is there a longitude one side of which people scarf burgers and fries and on the other they eat only rice? If the West has "no culture" it's partly becuase of globalisation (corporations / £$£$£) and partly because people ignore / are ignorant about their own traditions in favour of more "exotic" ones, with claims like "carrots give you spleen qi" (when everyone know they help you see in the dark)

MacD and chain-store food aside, give me "Western" levels of hygeine and food preparation any day

cheers

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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:53 am

D_Glenn wrote:Darth, for a Doctor your bedside manner is terrible- You're fat because you eat too much and don't move enough. Quit eating to alleviate your boredom or to quell your damn emotional surges. Now get out of my office you fat bastard!




lol, that's quite funny. If I was a doctor, I likely wouldn't be a GP. I'd specialize in vaginas like any sane man. :)

athletic vaginas mostly with any luck. ;D
Coconuts. Bananas. Mangos. Rice. Beans. Water. It's good.
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Re: Tcm & energetic qualities of food.

Postby zenshiite on Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:00 am

RobP2 wrote:The problem I always have with this Western / Eastern thing is that it is so vague and generalised as to be non-sensical. Where is the dividing line? Is there a longitude one side of which people scarf burgers and fries and on the other they eat only rice? If the West has "no culture" it's partly becuase of globalisation (corporations / £$£$£) and partly because people ignore / are ignorant about their own traditions in favour of more "exotic" ones, with claims like "carrots give you spleen qi" (when everyone know they help you see in the dark)

MacD and chain-store food aside, give me "Western" levels of hygeine and food preparation any day

cheers

Rob


I'd say the world is becoming increasingly less cultural because of globalization. Urban folks in Asia are increasingly scarfing burgers and fries as much as Americans.

European traditions probably wouldn't say that carrots give you spleen qi, certainly... but they'd say something similar to the temperature thing. I know those ideas are echoes in Islamic medical literature, especially those texts which are essentially just lists of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad or his family related to dietary therapies. The classifications are sometimes different from that found in TCM or Ayurveda but the ideas are the same. I don't doubt the ancient Greeks and Egyptians taught/practiced similar ideas. Check this out: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=2629169 It compares and contrasts Hippocrates' theories with Chinese.
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