Forgiveness

[Ian]

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

On forgiveness as a human quality (not just a religious one) - where do you draw the line between being forgiving and being a doormat?

This is a general question as I'm interested in general answers.

[Steve James]

Depends on why you're forgiving and whether you're sincere. That takes a reason and a decision. So, I'm not sure that it's possible to draw a line. The only time forgiveness really matters if it's for something that was over the line. I.e., I can forgive someone for stepping on my new white sneakers, but so what? Can I forgive my enemies for doing the unspeakable? That's when it counts. Not saying I can do this, btw.

[Snow]

I think forgiveness doesn't coincide with being a doormat. Even if you insist that the hurtful action stop or remove yourself from the hurtful situation (or maybe it was just a one-time thing), being able to feel forgiveness inside yourself is still important for your own self-preservation. Holding on to anger, resentment, bitterness, hatred--they can destroy you. And vice-versa, you can be a very bitter and resentful doormat. So I think the outward expressions of the two qualities can be mistaken for each other sometimes, but viewed from the inside, the impulse is different: one is self-preserving and one is self-abnegating. Forgiving past hurts is one thing (and, in my opinion, is a very admirable thing that can lead to improved relations), but condoning future hurts is an entirely different thing.

[Bhassler]

There can be no forgiveness without fault, or blame. Generally speaking, rather than forgive I strive to see all actions phenomenologically from what I call a "human" perspective. What is it that the offending person is doing from THEIR perspective? Once I realize that it's not about me, the situation is not emotionally charged in the same sense-- it doesn't hurt me emotionally any more than a math problem would, or a history text. I would advocate at least some of this sort of practice for anyone.

In my own life, I take it further and say that I am basically responsible for every aspect of my life. Even if I don't control the exact circumstances, I have choices about how to respond. So when I got hit by a truck on my motorcycle, even though the other guy ran the light, I still feel it was my fault, because I could have been more aware, more cautious, or just not ridden my bike that day. I never felt the need to forgive the other driver because I was never concerned about what HE did wrong, only what I could have done better. If my (hypothetical) girlfriend cheats on me, I have to look at what I could have done in the relationship to provide her with whatever it was that she needed and wasn't getting. At that point, I still have to evaluate whether I would have been willing to do whatever it was I could have done, and also whether I want to continue with the relationship after whatever had happened. This doesn't mean that I necessarily condone my hypothetical girlfriend's hypothetical actions, it just means that I evaluate the relationship from a purely self-centered standpoint: would I rather be in a relationship with this person or not going forward given everything that I know? Of course my feelings can still be hurt, but once I address the more material issues of behaviour and defining the relationship, then I can address my feelings in a much clearer fashion for what they are and not have my head all cluttered up with junk.

In a nutshell, I find that the better I understand myself and others, the more compassionate I become and the less relevant things like forgiveness become. At the same time, because I really know who I am and what my limits are, it's much easier to stand up for myself and my beliefs without becoming emotional in ways that are not productive.

[internalenthusiast]

interesting question, IMO.

i don't think forgiving, means that one needs to condone a certain behavior. this is my first reaction, and instinctive reaction to your question.

i'd say "condoning" or "tacitly accepting" a behavior which is abusive, is being a doormat, whether intended this way or not. one can forgive, without condoning, and without placing oneself in a position to receive a repeat of a behavior.

sometimes, IME, it's necessary to forgive, and also remove oneself from someone, if the behavior seems out of control by that person. it's especially sad (and difficult) when the situation is with someone we love and care for.

i think all three of the previous respondents have contributed really useful thoughts.

steve: can one forgive the unspeakable. this is the really hard part, imo. i've been lucky in my life to not have much "unspeakable". though i've been hurt, it doesn't compare, for instance to the raped and incarcerated (by the father) children of the german man who was in the news over the past year or so. this is to my mind, unspeakable.

beth/snow: lack of forgiveness means one may carry around a personal acid which can be very destructive to ones own health and relationships. so, it's survival on a certain level, to work things through. both for oneself, and for ones relationships when possible.

Bhassler's post is harder for me to precis. but I'd say the most valuable aspects to me, from what he's written are: one has to try to gain perspectives of others' behavior, and an understanding of what one can control and what one can't. his thoughts on perspective and compassion, are i feel, really well stated. compassion, i'd say, is a crucial element of true forgiveness. but it needn't, and shouldn't mean a surrender to abuse. it's a more "comprehensive" viewpoint, i think. which hopefully contributes to ones own efficacy, and everyone's welfare, in the end.

in sum: i think your question is as much on topic as any on the forum (how to do/counter xyz thing...) and has as much to do with survival in the end, as most things.

best to you...

[Steve James]

Can one forgive the unspeakable?

Let me put it in a more specific context, since unspeakable is a really big idea. Let me also make a distinction between what one can do and what one (imo) should do. Can I forgive the person who has committed an unspeakable crime against me? Well, I dunno if I can, but I know I should. That's not an acceptance of the crime; there's just no benefit for me of not forgiving. (Of course, forgetting is another thing; and I don't think I could forget --though it'd probably be better too).

Ok, so, imo, forgiving my trespassers or enemies is pretty straightforward. Now, can I forgive the person who hurts someone I love or care for? Probably not, but I probably should. One caveat, though, forgiveness does not ever imply that the person should not be punished for what he or she did. And, I don't believe that society needs to forgive a criminal at all.

Otoh, I do agree that forgiveness can come from understanding. I.e., that it's possible to understand why someone has done something and, because of that understanding, the need to forgive disappears. If one can remain that detached, then there might not be any need for forgiveness. Still, that doesn't mean that one won't need and ought to defend oneself --and others.

[internalenthusiast]

thanks, steve. as always, your thoughts are, IMO, eloquently stated.

BTW, ian, and everyone: i mean my comments on steve's, beth's and Bhasslers's comments most respectfully. i feel that all three have given very useful info on the question. which is a difficult one, IMO.

i don't mean to mis-represent any of the three. only meant to try to summarize at the moment what i felt to be their useful statements from my perspective at the moment.

all three are IMO very capable of presenting their thoughts more eloquently than i am able to do. it's one of the blessings of having a forum inhabited by articulate people.

ian, i do feel you've raised a very worthy question. both in terms of ethics, and self-preservation.

precisely because this is a difficult question, and IMO a pertinent one, this has a potential to become a very interesting and powerful thread.

very best to all...

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Openly forgiving the transgressions of someone upon you is freeing.

It clears away a lot of negative emotion when you forgive.

Occasionally, it even brings a new friend into the fold.

Don't try to control others, they will do what they do and be what they be.

Undertake to cultivate yourself and serve as example to those in your charge.

[yusuf]

forgiving is wonderful, vengeance is also quite liberating....

[Dmitri]

where do you draw the line between being forgiving and being a doormat?

Can you maybe give an example of what you're talking about? These are two very different ideas, as was pointed out above... maybe a concrete example would help clarify what exactly you're asking here. Just a thought.

[Bhassler]

One caveat, though, forgiveness does not ever imply that the person should not be punished for what he or she did. And, I don't believe that society needs to forgive a criminal at all.

It's interesting that you look at this from a societal perspective as well as an individual one. From a cultural standpoint, if a criminal by their actions shows that they are unable to live in civilized society, do we incarcerate them in order to punish or are we simply removing them from society until they show they are able to function within that society? In my mind nothing good can be accomplished by punishment or revenge for it's own sake. Operating from the standpoint of trying to do what's best for ALL involved means looking at the situation as it is going forwards and attempting to find the way that everyone can be the most successful, so the goal of a justice/prison system should be to remove those who cannot function within a given society from that society and then helping them to do whatever it is they need to do to re-integrate. However, reality dictates that we can only tolerate or do so much as individual persons, and also that a system operating on a massive scale has limits in terms of how criminals can be dealt with, so we somehow have to find a balance individually between the way we would LIKE things to be and the way things actually are at this moment. We have to be nuanced in our approach to situations so that we are successful with what is while at the same time helping to move the world towards what could be.

[Steve James]

Yeah, I put it into social terms because, for ex., suppose someone kills (er, murders) me, is it possible for me to forgive? Is it possible for those around me still living to forgive? Should they? There's no general answer, imo. It depends on the precise context. However, I can say that no one can forgive my murderer "for" me. That's when it comes down to questions of justice, which is social because it applies to all individuals in a society.

Anyway, justice and forgiveness are entirely different ideas. The opposite of justice is injustice. The opposite of forgiveness is vindictiveness. Those are emotions. So, imo, we're asking what people should feel, not what they should do. Btw, there are different ways to conceive justice (for ex., retribution and deterrence are different forms).

[middleway]

there is a web of circumstances and events that are attached to every instance where you feel wronged. Perspective and subjective viewpoints are what define right or wrong in many cases. Not necessarily the actions in and of themselves.

Murder to one man might be justifiable ... to another it might be the worst crime.

'Forgive those who trespass against us for they lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil'

This is the most important point for me. What is to be gained from forgiving those who wrong you. The deliverance from evil can be defined as removal of things that can hinder our progress. Negative emotional attachment to those that wrong you will without doubt hinder your life in some way. Forgiving them will clear the path for you to move forward with your life.

IMO forgiveness can mean letting go. Without forgiveness we hold onto the emotional energy attached to an event or circumstance and this can cause problems down the line both physically and emotionally.

The relationship of carrying emotions around with us from past and how we live now is an interesting subject. A friend of mine is in a constant state of emotional turmoil because she cant let go of things that happened many years ago, She cant let go or forgive people and its making her life very hard now both physically and mentally.

forgiveness is vital for us all i think. But of course that doesnt mean letting people walk over you... For example you get attacked .... kick them in the balls then forgive them for trying to attack you

All the best
Chris

[Interloper]

Otoh, I do agree that forgiveness can come from understanding. I.e., that it's possible to understand why someone has done something and, because of that understanding, the need to forgive disappears. If one can remain that detached, then there might not be any need for forgiveness. Still, that doesn't mean that one won't need and ought to defend oneself --and others.

IME, a party who is agrieved may not realize that there are two sides to the story, and may be too rigid or unaware to accept that there was an equal participation by both parties that brought about the "defendent's" behavior. There may have been things both parties could have done to avoid or avert the negative situation or event. Being open to discourse -- being able to communicate -- is crucial. And, when one appoints oneself jury, judge and prosecutor, one should not omit the defense.

[nianfong]

even if...even if... you don't love me anymore?