american ettiquete (sifu, bowing etc)

[ninepalace]

i've learned from two teachers from china in their sixties and seventies. neither of them insists or even asks that they be called sifu or anything like that. there is no bowing or uniforms/costumes.

indeed, they've commented on how all that sifu and bowing stuff is mostly an american thing.

also it seems to me that to the chinese "grandmaster" means "my master's master". but here it's like someone who is some kind of elite master.

[Muad'dib]

Ah, its the same with Japanese stuff. In japan they bow, because its what they do. In america they bow because the person running the dojo is an anal retentive power freak who can only count to 10 in Japanese, but want's it to be "authentic" or some bullshit like that.

I think I was the only person who bowed to my teacher in SF, but I did it just because the others didn't.

[gryphonz]

Back in S'pore, I called my teacher "Coach"

[Dmitri]

Well if you do a Japanese art -- wearing their traditional clothes, using their traditional weapons, etc., etc. -- why not display respect to the tradition by (traditionally) bowing to the mat, at least? Don't see anything wrong with it.

Who cares about that stuff... I'd be a lot more concerned about exactly what and how well they teach.

[xingyijuan]

I was in a school who would swear by Chinese traditions. How to treat a master, the bowing, the uniform, the belts, all were said to be strictly traditional. Of course, the "grandmaster" is Vietnamese...

When I told my current teacher about it he just burst in laughter!

Edit: Oh! By the way: it's etiquette... not ettiquete

[nianfong]

in taiwan we saluted our teacher at the beginning of class. and at the end of class, we saluted him and said "xie4 zhi3 jiao4" (thank you for teaching me)
salute = the fist in palm thing. we just called him teacher (laoshi). he never insisted on it, it's just what you call your teacher--always address with respect.
shifu is for when you go through the tea ceremony and all. but the other definition of shifu is simply a master of an art--and in that case (he would be addressed wu shifu) he would never refer to himself that way. only other people would call him that. and being as humble as he is, he would of course never insist on it.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

the school where i received formal training in sil lum was also tied to teh KMT which is a political/military organization (you know, the guys who run Taiwan) lol.

we saluted our sifu before and at the end of class and we always refered to him as sifu and his wife as simo.

the "traditions" were nothing more than manners really.

If you don't have manners then that is an issue in your own self and not your teachers.

encouraging youth to not have respect is dangerous in our fat and soft society here in North America. Having 9 year olds in demanding tones wanting to see you run through your curricula would be your other choice.

I have no problem with making youth kowtow and to help them learn some manners if they don't have any. I think that is a valid mechanism to include in a martial discipline.

and face it, if your teacher didn't see that you respected him whether or not you kowtow, he will dump you like he dumps breakfast before his supper. lol

It's not a church, but there is nothing at all in the slightest wrong with establishing a relationship of mutual respect and the trappings that go with.

[Muad'dib]

Well if you do a Japanese art -- wearing their traditional clothes, using their traditional weapons, etc., etc. -- why not display respect to the tradition by (traditionally) bowing to the mat, at least? Don't see anything wrong with it.

American's tend to take it to extremes that don't exist in Japan. Japan can be pretty formal, don't get me wrong, but it's just more of a power play in america and less politeness. Leaves a bad taste.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Well if you do a Japanese art -- wearing their traditional clothes, using their traditional weapons, etc., etc. -- why not display respect to the tradition by (traditionally) bowing to the mat, at least? Don't see anything wrong with it.[/quote

American's tend to take it to extremes that don't exist in Japan. Japan can be pretty formal, don't get me wrong, but it's just more of a power play in america and less politeness. Leaves a bad taste.

I agree. There does seem to be a lot of "control issues" in North America. I think it's because of how we practice leadership as a society wherein, the leader has final say on anything and if we disagree we just suck it up because that's what the leader does.

It's a silly cultural thing for North Americans and euro-centric people in general.

[ninepalace]

American's tend to take it to extremes that don't exist in Japan. Japan can be pretty formal, don't get me wrong, but it's just more of a power play in america and less politeness. Leaves a bad taste.

you summed it up more concisely than i. my CMC style teacher calls it the "too serious face" that you see in a lot of settings.

as for politeness and kids, i agree 100%. i was speaking only of the study of IMA by mature adults.