Why we need socialized health care.

[TaoJoannes]

The current health care scheme in the US DOES kinda remind me of the firemen from "Gangs of New York".

[Chris Fleming]

Firstly I have to disagree with the voice's definition of where our tax dollars go. Our tax dollars do not go to run the federal government, despite people commonly thinking that they do. The person who made this doesn't seem to understand that there is a difference between state and local governments and the federal government. He's talking about nation wide socialist health care, not the services the state provides.

But mainly, I can't stand either alternative. Insurance is one of the biggest racketeering rings there is. I don't think I have to go into that. However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait. This is what happens in Europe. It is way too simple to think that we all will just put money into a big "pool" and when "SOMEONE" needs it they will get it. I don't want to pay for some fat slob who chooses not to take care of himself. It won't matter anyway because with the cost of health care, the "pool" will run dry real quick. OR everyone will have to be taxed much more, which I'm sure people will love.

I find it interesting that in all of this debate, the idea of actually taking responsibility for yourself and your health hardly ever comes up. Case in point: my wife was working for a city run transportation company which up to most recently provided free health care to their employees and family. Nearly all of these people were obese and had a plethora of health problems. The cost to care for these people became way too much for even a governmental agency to continue to provide. So they brought up the idea that the employees needed to pay a co-pay. That caused such a shit storm between the management and the employees/union. They just didn't understand that they had one of the best deals in the COUNTRY when it came to health care but it was bankrupting the budget. They didn't understand that they had to start paying SOMETHING for their hospital/doctor visits. These overly dependent people and exasperated management are a microcosm of what universal socialist whatever you call it health care will look like.

If you think the health care situation is bad now, just think about how it will be in a few years as taxes will have to be raised to keep the entitlement programs going for all of our country's entitled generation of baby boomers.

[grzegorz]

If we have money for wars we can have health care for the poor.

Yeah, yeah people can go on and one about the national debt like it's a religion but the reality is the national debt was there when we were born and it's going to be there when we all die.

But mainly, I can't stand either alternative. Insurance is one of the biggest racketeering rings there is. I don't think I have to go into that. However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait. This is what happens in Europe. It is way too simple to think that we all will just put money into a big "pool" and when "SOMEONE" needs it they will get it. I don't want to pay for some fat slob who chooses not to take care of himself. It won't matter anyway because with the cost of health care, the "pool" will run dry real quick. OR everyone will have to be taxed much more, which I'm sure people will love.

Then why does France have the best health care in the world?

Have you ever called Kaiser? They put you on a waiting list too...First you have to go through your health care provider (your main doctor) and then get approval to see a "real" doctor for your problem.

[Bär]

Think about all those boomers going bankrupt when they have a serious illness. A socialized choice does not preclude private insurance. Citing worst-case "all those people were stupid and fat and that's why our health care costs so much" or "Europeans die on waiting lists" are just smoke screens. Far more Americans die because of a lack of care than any wait listed Euro. Having been a beneficiary of European socialized health care/government insurance, I can vouch for the efficacy of that system.

So - why do you hate America so much that you want to see people die from lack of care?

[qiphlow]

However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait.

actually, waiting times for surgeries are determined more by the availability of the surgeon and space in the operating room, also availability of the anesthesiologist, equipment, assistants, recovery bed space, etc. etc. and if you're so in need of a surgery that you would, in fact, die without having the procedure, then you're sure as hell gonna get that surgery done if your surgeon puts up enough of a fight for it.

as to the topic, i think that every citizen in the US should be able to get free healthcare from the facility that they choose.

[emre]

However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait. This is what happens in Europe.

Have you ever lived in Europe?

[cdobe]

If we have money for wars we can have health care for the poor.

Yeah, yeah people can go on and one about the national debt like it's a religion but the reality is the national debt was there when we were born and it's going to be there when we all die.

But mainly, I can't stand either alternative. Insurance is one of the biggest racketeering rings there is. I don't think I have to go into that. However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait. This is what happens in Europe. It is way too simple to think that we all will just put money into a big "pool" and when "SOMEONE" needs it they will get it. I don't want to pay for some fat slob who chooses not to take care of himself. It won't matter anyway because with the cost of health care, the "pool" will run dry real quick. OR everyone will have to be taxed much more, which I'm sure people will love.

Then why does France have the best health care in the world?

You'll be hard pressed to find ANY European country with an inferior performance than the US system at all.
http://www.who.int/entity/whr/2000/en/w ... nex_en.pdf

The funny thing is, that I have never before heard about waiting lists for medical procedures, until I heard it from US American people using it to argue about something . Makes people look like complete idiots...

[TaoJoannes]

the firemen in question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa8CSYUoJIY&NR=1

[Chris Fleming]

However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait. This is what happens in Europe.

Have you ever lived in Europe?

My wife lived in England for several years. I wrote about this particular story on the last time we debated this issue where a friend of hers needed a surgery and was sent away. She was told that they, the doctors, had done their limit of those kinds of procedures for that year and she had to come back. The woman did come back and was in a much worse condition and was asked by the doctors, "how come you waited so long to come in for surgery".

[Chris Fleming]

"If we have money for wars we can have health care for the poor."

Ah. The famous "guns and butter" approach to government. Wars abroad and social entitlements at home. Such things are bankrupting this country. The idea that we can just print our way into free care for everyone is sad. But don't worry, "they" have a plan and "they" will take care of you, don't worry about taking responsibility for your own health.

The whole world system is designed to make you a slave to money and separate you from your money--thus making you all the more enslaved to money. I see "health care" as just another program operating in this system.

[grzegorz]

However, socialist health care just ends up with people on long waiting lists for needed surgeries and perhaps dying in the wait. This is what happens in Europe.

Have you ever lived in Europe?

My wife lived in England for several years. I wrote about this particular story on the last time we debated this issue where a friend of hers needed a surgery and was sent away. She was told that they, the doctors, had done their limit of those kinds of procedures for that year and she had to come back. The woman did come back and was in a much worse condition and was asked by the doctors, "how come you waited so long to come in for surgery".

And here in the States Kaiser denied my wife health coverage while she was pregnant.

They didn't give us any reason or any response. She filled out the paper work and they denied her.

The whole world system is designed to make you a slave to money and separate you from your money--thus making you all the more enslaved to money. I see "health care" as just another program operating in this system.

You mean like not being able to quit your dead end job at Walmart because of the health benefits?

While the CEOs are making 500 million a year?

[Chris Fleming]

"You mean like not being able to quit your dead end job at Walmart because of the health benefits?"

Do they even get health benefits? But no, I never accept that a person is a hapless pawn to circumstance.

"And here in the States Kaiser denied my wife health coverage while she was pregnant. They didn't give us any reason or any response. She filled out the paper work and they denied her."

Well that sucks too. Sounds like you got screwed by the world system I was just talking about--that's why I originally called health insurance a racketeering outfit. You pay and pay and pay and then they don't cover. It's just that some internet guy wondered if I had any basis for talking about European health care and another internet guy basically called me an idiot, so I posted the story about the friend of my wife again.

"While the CEOs are making 500 million a year?"

If you want to make the money of a CEO, then go and make it happen. I personally don't have a problem with people making that kind of money. Their board of directors and shareholders all have a stake in how much a CEO ultimately gets paid.

[cdobe]

Well that sucks too. Sounds like you got screwed by the world system I was just talking about--that's why I originally called health insurance a racketeering outfit. You pay and pay and pay and then they don't cover. It's just that some internet guy wondered if I had any basis for talking about European health care and another internet guy basically called me an idiot, so I posted the story about the friend of my wife again.

Chris,

I never called you personally an idiot. It wasn't directed at you, I should have made this more clear. My apologies. My statement refers to so called journalists, who spread this myth about Europe in the US media. I'm sorry to hear that your wife didn't get the medical attention she needed, but as I said, I have never heard about this phenomenon, before I saw it on US media.
The question you should ask yourself is, whether everybody in the US would have gotten the treatment in question without any problems (and without financially ruining them afterwards).

CD

[Chris Fleming]

Ok no problem, I feel what you are saying.

Believe me, I am all for people being treated and treated well. I just am not for greedy insurance companies taking advantage of people nor am I for the government gaining more power over people's lives and heath. I don't want to see this country continue to think that it can just print it's way out of everything, which seems to be the direction we are and have been going on.

I am all ears to you guys who live in other countries. You're in Germany and others have mentioned France--how is it over there? I know there will be differences in economies due to the hole the US has gotten itself into but it would be interesting to see how others do it. Believe me, I totally know that the US has one of the WORST records for health care for a developed country.

[kreese]

Taiwan: with or without insurance always got to see a doctor, never waited more than 20 minutes and could always afford the meds. chinese medicine too if I wanted it. friends who had accidents (broken wrists, ankles, etc) were able to afford treatment with no problems. trips to the ER didn't break the bank.

Germany: my roommate, while back in Germany, snapped a ligament in his knee. he has cheap private insurance and got the surgery, meds, all affordable.

once you have health care you can afford you realize how absurd it is to not be able to afford it even if you have insurance. it's not about some government conspiracy or being some socialist commie or whatever...it's about needing basic treatment and being able to get it. sure, if you've got a serious problem it won't ever be cheap, but for most everyday situations it shouldn't be something that can ruin you financially or make you think twice about seeing a doc.