snake with a hand

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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Michael on Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:07 pm

Moral truth is not completely known and understood, it is searched for and tested the same as scientific truth. There is no transcendent arbiter of what is scientific fact and what is not.

So you think I haven't done any research on this topic? C'mon, you're not the only one who's ever cracked open a book. I don't want to see our ecology ruined, but I think it's best to find solutions that include human growth and do not advocate coercive population controls.

If man is just an animal, like all the other apes and whatnot, how is it he has the awareness to know this and adjust his normal behavior to prevent ecological disaster? Or is it only a certain few of the naked apes that have this awareness and deserve to live while the rest are culled?
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby PartridgeRun on Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:57 pm

Michael wrote:Moral truth is not completely known and understood, it is searched for and tested the same as scientific truth. There is no transcendent arbiter of what is scientific fact and what is not.

So you think I haven't done any research on this topic? C'mon, you're not the only one who's ever cracked open a book. I don't want to see our ecology ruined, but I think it's best to find solutions that include human growth and do not advocate coercive population controls.

If man is just an animal, like all the other apes and whatnot, how is it he has the awareness to know this and adjust his normal behavior to prevent ecological disaster? Or is it only a certain few of the naked apes that have this awareness and deserve to live while the rest are culled?


We won't prevent ecological collapse PRECISELY because we're biased against self-knowledge and PRECISELY because scientific thinking isn't natural to us, it takes hard work to think scientifically. And reading your citations of the utterly absurd claims that we can basically procreate as we would like and other equally inane claims, tells me that - indeed no - you haven't done your homework on the subject.
This discussion is going nowhere, because you're ignorant on the subject-matter and you can't be bothered to redress that fact.

Have the last word Michael.

--edited for tone--
Last edited by PartridgeRun on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Craig on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:27 pm

PartridgeRun, your argument would probably be stronger if you didn't present your facts in a condescending tone like you are (at least that's how I interpret it). No need to say his name every other sentence, it comes off like you are talking to him like he is a toddler. If you didn't mean to come off this way it might be an idea to reword the points you are making, I'm sure a lot of people, including Michael, are getting the same vibe I am.

Just sayin.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Michael on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:59 pm

PartridgeRun wrote:We won't prevent ecological collapse PRECISELY because we're biased against self-knowledge and PRECISELY because scientific thinking isn't natural to us, it takes hard work to think scientifically Michael. And reading your citations of the utterly absurd claims that we can basically procreate as we would like and other equally inane claims, tells me that - indeed no - you haven't done your homework on the subject Michael.
This discussion is going nowhere, because you're ignorant on the subject-matter and you can't be bothered to redress that fact.

Have the last word Michael.


Don't go all ad hominem control freak just because I don't accept your premise. My point is that science is not the only concern or the only part of reality, and it takes morality to decide how to apply scientific knowledge. The NAZI's had a lot of scientific power and applied it with a very questionable morality, eg, death camps, as did the USA during WW2, eg, Nagasaki & Dresden.

I am not trying to mock you, but demonstrate the similarity between the two:

We won't prevent social collapse PRECISELY because we're biased against self-knowledge and PRECISELY because moral thinking isn't natural to us, it takes hard work to think morally.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Michael on Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:18 pm

Now obviously I'm too ignorant and full of dopamine to understand science, but science is awesome because it tests its own knowledge and then attempts to teach it, so I say teach it. If the science shows a certain fact, then use education to influence people's behavior. What I object to are people who say they have a relatively exclusive understanding of science, but will use violence and government coercion to force their views on others, especially when it comes to sterilization, abortion, and outright ending people's lives.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Interloper on Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:19 pm

I think it's fair to say that certain groups claim to do "science," when in fact they are just mimicking the process and arriving at false conclusions based on false premises. The Nazi "scientists" are an example of that.

Some groups may follow the scientific method to a limited extent, then twist the "results" to their favor. Like that old saying that "Statistics don't lie, but statisticians do."
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Michael on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:38 pm

No Interloper, NO! Science is always right and never changes. It's never influenced by politics and never submits to agendas of greed or power. Don't you get it? Sheesh! Science save us all. Praise Ford!
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Interloper on Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:53 am

Ow ow ow! Incoming Sarcasm shrapnel! ;D

Must...defend...with...keen-grasp-of-the-obvious stinkbomb...
The scientific method is what it is: a rational process. It, in itself, isn't wrong; it's the people who play with it who are fallible.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:09 am

Interloper wrote:I think it's fair to say that certain groups claim to do "science," when in fact they are just mimicking the process and arriving at false conclusions based on false premises. The Nazi "scientists" are an example of that.

Some groups may follow the scientific method to a limited extent, then twist the "results" to their favor. Like that old saying that "Statistics don't lie, but statisticians do."



Not to be harsh, but the Nazi's advanced science quite a lot.

Astoundingly one could say that if not for the nazis scientific efforts we would not have the level of rocket science, metallurgy, jet propulsion and even understanding of human DNA had they not endeavoured to rule the world.

sometimes good things come from bad places and vice versa.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:15 am

Nazi's advanced science quite a lot


You mean Germans --including, and maybe especially, Jewish Germans. There is no legitimate scientific premise underlying Nazism (imho). In fact, their fundamental pseudo-scientific premise is refuted by science. Its even difficult to say which German scientists (weapons designers, industrialists, etc.) were Nazis.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Michael on Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:58 am

Werner Von Braun, member of the SS, pictured with Himler. FYI for anyone not familiar, Von Braun was brought to the US and was responsible or much of NASA's success in rocketry. He also continued to put on the old SS uniform and have meetings with his SS buddies in NASA according to Richard Hoagland's book: Dark Mission.

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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:12 am

Fwiw, von Braun did join the Nazi party, was a member of the Waffen SS. And, his work did blaze the trail for further developments in rocketry. True, his work was with the army, developing V1s and V2s to use to bomb the Allies. But, that's war science, not Nazi science. Einstein was German, too, no?
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Interloper on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:39 pm

Darth Rock&Roll wrote:
Interloper wrote:I think it's fair to say that certain groups claim to do "science," when in fact they are just mimicking the process and arriving at false conclusions based on false premises. The Nazi "scientists" are an example of that.

Some groups may follow the scientific method to a limited extent, then twist the "results" to their favor. Like that old saying that "Statistics don't lie, but statisticians do."



Not to be harsh, but the Nazi's advanced science quite a lot.

Astoundingly one could say that if not for the nazis scientific efforts we would not have the level of rocket science, metallurgy, jet propulsion and even understanding of human DNA had they not endeavoured to rule the world.

sometimes good things come from bad places and vice versa.


I agree, but in that instance I was thinking more of those such as Josef Mengele who were allowed to do decidely non-scientific "experiments" (I won't go into detail) that had no rational founding hypotheses. The Nazis had plenty of bona fide, albeit politically biased, scientists working for them, but they also gave free rein to a number of crackpots who committed atrocities in the name of science.
Last edited by Interloper on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Interloper on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:41 pm

Steve James wrote:Fwiw, von Braun did join the Nazi party, was a member of the Waffen SS. And, his work did blaze the trail for further developments in rocketry. True, his work was with the army, developing V1s and V2s to use to bomb the Allies. But, that's war science, not Nazi science. Einstein was German, too, no?


Yes, but Einstein was an ethnic (Ashkenazic) Jew. He didn't count as a German. ;)

The Nazis despised Einstein on three counts. He was too smart for them, he was Jewish, and he advocated world peace. It didn't matter that his famous formula of E = MC squared laid the theoretical basis for an atomic bomb; Under the twisted logic of anti-Semitism, he was Jewish. Therefore, his work -- work that had wrapped up thousands of years of scientific observation into a few, dazzling theories -- was "Jewish physics" and must be wrong.

While Hitler raved, his goons went into action. They burned Einstein's treatises. They raided his lakeside villa in suburban Berlin. They seized his furniture books, bank account and even his violin.

Einstein's fellow physicists, the leading brains of German society, goose-stepped right in line with the brownshirts and threw him out of the Prussian Academy of Science as a "traitor."

Fortunately, Einstein was world-wise enough to know what was coming.

The previous fall, he had accepted an invitation from educator Abraham Flexner to study in America. Flexner's idea was to create a haven where physicists and mathematicians could ponder the nature of the world while remaining free from the world's cares -- and free from having to teach. He called this haven the Institute for Advanced Study, endowed it and set it up on the Princeton University campus.

Einstein left Germany for good in December 1932, a month before the Hitler takeover. For most of 1933, he lectured and studied in England and in Belgium. In October, he set sail for America, for what he thought would be a six-month appointment at the Institute.


From this cool site: http://www.capitalcentury.com/1933.html
Last edited by Interloper on Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: snake with a hand

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:06 pm

Sure, he was a German Jew until the Nazis started their craziness and he, and many others as you know, fled. If the Nazis had not been in control of Germany, Einstein and many other Jews would have worked as good, patriotic Germans --just as they did in WW1.

The Nazis were the political party in power. They developed the idea that their Jewish population was not truly German, by blood. The "blut" laws were integral to the Nuremberg agenda. If Jews were "ethnically" different Germans, then so were many other groups of people in Germany. This is all old news to you, I know. But, personally, I argue that the Nazi's biggest victims were Germans and their own kind. Yeah, they picked and chose specific groups, those they called inferior; and they directed a particular fury at the Jews. However, the Nazi took away the rights of Jews to be Germans. They were not considered or consider themselves a separate nationality. Ethnicity and nationality are never mutually exclusive. No?
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