Is Obama a 'natural born' US citizen ?

[Michael]

As I understand it, at the time McCain was born, there was no US military base in the Panama Canal Zone. I believe there's about a year difference between the two.

[Royal Dragon]

You could take it that way. I meant it much more general though. As a whole, Amerikans have been getting dumber, and dumber, and dumber. Things that SHOULD have everyone all up in arms, and sounding alarms don't seem to even phase anyone anymore.

It's like the whole nation is in some sort of conveluded dream where nothing of importance even matters anymore.

The very fact that the two candidates are the LEAST qualified of anyone who ran in the primaries is a testament to that. The fact that slick talking has effectively fogged out the many issues

But Bush was "experienced". He was a Governor for a pretty long time. Look what he did in office.

Just because you haven't been in Washington for a long time,doesn't mean that you can't be an effective leader-


This quote:

" total anti American socialist who will shred the constitution and use it for toilet paper."

Is totally off base, and is not grounded in any shred of reality based fact.

You are totally buying into the slagging that the McCain campain is putting out.


I'm gonna be honest, and real straightforward-

At this point, all this slagging is Racism.

Racists are bugging out and making up all kinds of shit because they're freaking out that a Black Man is about to become the next President.


Point Blank Period.


Because he's Black, he's gonna shred the Constitution. Because He's Black, he's "socialist" "communist" "a Terrorist" "anti American"

It's all RACISM.


People can't outright call him NI**ER, so they're using the above charges as codewords.


WATCH-

Before this is over, be it between now or election day or more likely now and the day Obama steps in office, we're gonna start seeing alot more OVERT Racism.

They won't be able to contain it anymore once he wins.

Reply]
This is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. I don't care WHAT color you are, when you say (And Obama DID say) he believes in "Spreading the wealth around", THAT is Socialism. Infact it's one of the DEFINING PRINCIPALS of Socialism.



His own words, describing his beliefs, are Anti American to the core. How dare you try and spin this as skin pigment issue. Last I checked, the amount of melanin in one's skin had NOTHING to do with his vocal cords, or the words they produce.

Oh, and another thing, I didn't get this from the "Mcain campaign", I heard it come right out of OBAMA'S OWN MOUTH!!! I don't need some dolt i don't even like to interperate what I heard Obama say. I know damm well what "Spreading the wealth means on my own.

[Royal Dragon]

As I understand it, at the time McCain was born, there was no US military base in the Panama Canal Zone. I believe there's about a year difference between the two.

Reply]
If that is true, then BOTH candidates probably need to be disqualified and we need to start over.

[Steve James]

RD, the problem's not with the definition, it's how its being spun. For ex., okay, "spreading the wealth" is socialism. Well, for that matter, taxation, welfare --including corporate bailouts with taxpayers money, social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment, workmen's compensation are all socialist (if you say it's "spreading the wealth" or "redistribution of wealth."

"We" in the US could do away with all those things, but to say that a candidate is "socialist" because he supports them is really to miss the point. Which is, we are already "socialist", and Obama is more socialist than McCain. The only difference is in "how" each would see the "wealth" spread. Iinm, his "socialism" is limited to taxation --that's what the McCain campaign stresses. Sarah Palin, otoh, just gave a policy speech at a convention (?) for children with disabilities, where she said that she would make sure that gov't funding continued for those programs. Hey, I agree with her. But, it's socialism. I don't give a ginger snap because I've got kids and grandkids --who are thankfully healthy, and Il wouldn't complain about paying more taxes for those type of "social" reasons.

And, no matter what, socialists no scare me.

[Royal Dragon]

Correct, and I am against most of what you posted above. The only thing I would support is helping those NOT CAPABLE of helping themselves. That does not include forcing banks to give loans to people who cannot afford them so they can own a home rather than rent. It does not include massive corporate bailouts, subsidies for car manufacturers, and out right buying up failed banks and insurance companies.

I also don't approve of the government medding that CAUSED those failures in the first place either.

[Steve James]

Well, theoretically, all those social programs are for people who can't get them on their own or who need them. Unemployment insurance, for ex... but, anyway, the point I was making is that Obama is not introducing some new socialist agenda. He's just being accused of it: i.e., it doesn't really matter how socialist Obama is. It's enough to charge him with it, even if his opponent wants much the same thing, that will continue. It's like saying that he is not an Arab, terrorist, anti-American, un-American, non-American, racist fascist/communist friend of the "real" America's enemies. If it mattered, those charges would have disappeared long ago. Instead, people are just shouting the same things louder.

McCain might yet win the election, and the sad thing is that it'll be way to late to ask 1/2 the country to kiss and make up. But, personally, I don't think that anyone wil believe McCain/Palin when they start saying that we are all in this together. It kinda pisses me off, but I've lived through worse. I don't buy the patriotism of people who want to secede from the union becaue they aren't getting their way. Imo, people are only showing their real faces, and it's a breath of fresh air cause now it'll be on the record.

[C-Hopkins]

I don't need some dolt i don't even like to interperate what I heard Obama say. I know damm well what "Spreading the wealth means on my own.

Yet you use the same interpretation as the "dolt" you don't like.

There's no spin in stating that this is an issue of color. That doesn't necissarily mean that you RD are specifically racist. I think that this relentless attack of one thing after another after another- which is all baseless is in fact a byproduct of racism. And it's not just me, alot of people see it.

Having said that, There's nothing wrong with spereading the wealth that's been hoarded by the rich. How does that happen? Tax the rich and put that money into schools. Take that money and create jobs for the middle class. Use that money to stimulate opportunities to grow the economy so that the little man can prosper as well.

That's what Obama means. When that's distorted into baseless attacks, then yes I believe that is based upon race- and also CULTURE. But as Steve said it is a deeper issue unto itself. Racism/Culturalism is a byproduct of unknowing and fear.

That "socialist" comment has been taken and distorted by people who just don't want Obama in office.

[chud]

It's interesting to me how the plaintiff, Berg, is apparently not a McCain operative, but was a supporter of Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries.

That's right, he's a Democrat.

[Royal Dragon]

I don't need some dolt i don't even like to interperate what I heard Obama say. I know damm well what "Spreading the wealth means on my own.

Yet you use the same interpretation as the "dolt" you don't like.

Reply]
Because the facts speak the same thing. "Spread the wealth" IS socialist. Just because I see it, does not mean Mcain doesn't also see it too.


There's no spin in stating that this is an issue of color. That doesn't necissarily mean that you RD are specifically racist. I think that this relentless attack of one thing after another after another- which is all baseless is in fact a byproduct of racism. And it's not just me, alot of people see it.


Reply]
There are no baseless attacks. There ARE plenty of legit concerns. It has NOTHING to do with race, color and creed, and everything to do with actions and behavior...which last I looked had nothing to do with the Melinin content of people's skin.


Having said that, There's nothing wrong with spereading the wealth that's been hoarded by the rich. How does that happen? Tax the rich and put that money into schools. Take that money and create jobs for the middle class. Use that money to stimulate opportunities to grow the economy so that the little man can prosper as well.

Reply]
You cannot "TAX" the rich, and create Jobs at the smae time. remember, it is the Rich that provide the jobs in the first place. If you tax them, then you are punishing them to such an extent they cannot provide us jobs. The Rich are over taxed as it is. if anything we need to cut thier taxes, especially since many cannot even afford to do business in the US anymore and must go to India in order to survive.

Excessively taxing the rich has going on long enough, and has proven to be a complete failure. It's time it is stopped.

That's what Obama means. When that's distorted into baseless attacks, then yes I believe that is based upon race- and also [b]CULTURE. But as Steve said it is a deeper issue unto itself. Racism/Culturalism is a byproduct of unknowing and fear.[/b]

Reply]
Like I said, the amount of pigment in a person's skin seems to only matter to you, no one else really cares. Skin pigment has nothing to do with ideology, actions and behavior nor does it effect how one governs. It is Obama's actions, ideology, behavior and the way he wants to do things that people are against.

Those who keep "Trying" to make this about race do so because they have no other option but to try and distract the subject and divert it to a issue that will take the focus off the real problems. It's an attempt to regain controll of the subject by insisting that a false premise is real, when it is just made up out of thin air.

That "socialist" comment has been taken and distorted by people who just don't want Obama in office.[/quote]

Reply]
Total bullshit. It is the REASON people don't want him in office, along with a myrid of other reasons.

[steelincotton]

What’s so wrong with spreading the wealth around? Heck, I only know about 3 people who make 250K or more per year, so in my circles they are the exception, not the norm. If those 3 folks have to pay 3% more, which would be the same thing they use to pay during Clinton’s administration, I’d have no problem with that at all. The notion that the average hard working poor and struggling middle class folks are scared of “spreading the wealth around” really cracks me up! That’s a joke. Most working Americans will fair better with Obama’s economic plans over McCain’s – that’s just a fact!

For the last 8 years we’ve been giving corporate America all the breaks, i.e. tax breaks, loopholes, government issued corporate welfare (specifically to the OIL industry), etc., and where has it gotten us to? These so called wealth-providers have not trickled down to you and me from what I can tell. Ronald Reagan is dead and so are his conservative outdated fiscal theories. I’m no economist, but I like Obama’s ideas about building our economy from the ground up as opposed to the top down. Remember how McDonald’s started with a single hamburger stand, and a grill, and look where he took that. You don’t see much of that anymore do we? We better start thinking about reinvesting in our OWN country for a change, because our future as a nation begins now, not later. We have neglected our own children’s education and prosperity for corporate CEO’s profits, meanwhile our roads and bridges are collapsing, homelessness is on the rise, our jobs have been outsourced, the economy is in a crisis, and there are millions of folks without any health care at all.

As Steve mentioned previously, Social Security, Medicare, ederly housing, etc., and others like these are all great Socialist programs that work, and I for one, are glad we have them. We need to put MORE $$$ into these programs, and once we get socialized/nationalized health care like the rest of the world, we can finally put the missing pieces of the puzzle back together and become the great society we should be, but if we continue to keep doing the same things we’ve been doing for the last 8 years, and expect to see different results, that would be called insanity!

[steelincotton]

Posted on Sat, Oct. 25, 2008
Judge rejects Montco lawyer’s bid to have Obama removed from ballot
By MICHAEL HINKELMAN
Philadelphia Daily News

[email protected] 215-854-2656

A federal judge in Philadelphia last night threw out a complaint by a Montgomery County lawyer who claimed that Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama was not qualified to be president and that his name should be removed from the Nov. 4 ballot.
Philip J. Berg alleged in a complaint filed in federal district court on Aug. 21 against Obama, the Democratic National Committee and the Federal Election Commission, that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya.

Berg claimed that the Democratic presidential standardbearer is not even an American citizen but a citizen of Indonesia and therefore ineligible to be president.

He alleged that if Obama was permitted to run for president and subsequently found to be ineligible, he and other voters would be disenfranchised.

U.S. District Judge R. Barclay Surrick had denied Berg’s request for a temporary restraining order on Aug. 22 but had not ruled on the merits of the suit until yesterday.

Obama and the Democratic National Committee had asked Surrick to dismiss Berg’s complaint in a court filing on Sept. 24.

They said that Berg’s claims were “ridiculous” and “patently false,” that Berg had “no standing” to challenge the qualifications of a candidate for president because he had not shown the requisite harm to himself.

Surrick agreed.

In a 34-page memorandum and opinion, the judge said Berg’s allegations of harm were “too vague and too attenuated” to confer standing on him or any other voters.


Two things.

[1] Under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, respondent's failure to answer Requests for Admission in a timely manner is treated procedurally as an admission of the truth of the statements contained in the RFA--not as a legal determination of truth after presentation of factual evidence and due consideration by a judge or jury. The Obama campaign's lack of response to the RFAs does not prove the truth of Berg's assertions any more than if I filed a lawsuit against Berg claiming he is a Body Snatcher from Uranus, served him with a voluminous set of Requests for Admission including an admission that he is a Body Snatcher from Uranus, and he either failed to respond or did not respond until 31 days after the date of service of the RFAs. Plaintiffs often serve RFAs with the Summons and Complaint that initiates the lawsuit, as a pressure tactic rather than a truth-seeking measure. Respondents will then typically issue blanket "Denied" responses to all RFAs from the plaintiff seeking to establish the plaintiff's arguments, and admit only barebones facts such as name and address of respondent. This somewhat fatuous procedural exchange at the beginning of a lawsuit may be ignored entirely by a respondent confident that they can get the plaintiff's case dismissedon its merits--which is what happened here.

[2] Judge Surrick dismissed Berg's complaint on the issue of Berg's (or other voters') legal standing to bring a case--not specifically on the truth of what Berg alleged. However, in addressing the issue of standing, Surrick did state that Berg's allegations did not constitute an injury in fact, leaving no doubt as to how Surrick would have ruled if this proceeding had been a motion for summary judgment under CR 56, where Obama's campaign lawyers would have had to prove the absence of a genuine issue of material fact, following at least a modicum of discovery (interrogatories, depositions, requests for production of documents, etc.) in order to have the case dismissed as a matter of summary judgment.

Conspiracy theorists will still find plenty to blog about following the ruling.

It's interesting to me how the plaintiff, Berg, is apparently not a McCain operative, but was a supporter of Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries.

I hope this finally put's all this nonsense to bed. Go Obama.

[C-Hopkins]

Race has been a clear factor in this election.

And it matters to the people who are effected by it.


I don't want to develop an adverserial internet relationship w/you RD as I respect your views.

I think it best to disagree without being disagreeable, as arguing doesn't prove anything and really only serves to divide people.

The most important part of this election is not the dvisiveness and hate of the few, rather the out pouring of support and acceptance of the many.

To be honest and to change the focal point for a minuite, I'm seeing alot of good things coming out of this campain, one of which is some healing between racial and cultural devides.

I'm out.

[Royal Dragon]

What’s so wrong with spreading the wealth around? Heck, I only know about 3 people who make 250K or more per year, so in my circles they are the exception, not the norm. If those 3 folks have to pay 3% more, which would be the same thing they use to pay during Clinton’s administration, I’d have no problem with that at all. The notion that the average hard working poor and struggling middle class folks are scared of “spreading the wealth around” really cracks me up! That’s a joke. Most working Americans will fair better with Obama’s economic plans over McCain’s – that’s just a fact!

For the last 8 years we’ve been giving corporate America all the breaks, i.e. tax breaks, loopholes, government issued corporate welfare (specifically to the OIL industry), etc., and where has it gotten us to? These so called wealth-providers have not trickled down to you and me from what I can tell. Ronald Reagan is dead and so are his conservative outdated fiscal theories. I’m no economist, but I like Obama’s ideas about building our economy from the ground up as opposed to the top down. Remember how McDonald’s started with a single hamburger stand, and a grill, and look where he took that. You don’t see much of that anymore do we? We better start thinking about reinvesting in our OWN country for a change, because our future as a nation begins now, not later. We have neglected our own children’s education and prosperity for corporate CEO’s profits, meanwhile our roads and bridges are collapsing, homelessness is on the rise, our jobs have been outsourced, the economy is in a crisis, and there are millions of folks without any health care at all.

As Steve mentioned previously, Social Security, Medicare, ederly housing, etc., and others like these are all great Socialist programs that work, and I for one, are glad we have them. We need to put MORE $$$ into these programs, and once we get socialized/nationalized health care like the rest of the world, we can finally put the missing pieces of the puzzle back together and become the great society we should be, but if we continue to keep doing the same things we’ve been doing for the last 8 years, and expect to see different results, that would be called insanity!

Reply]
I'll tell you whats wrong with "Spreading the wealth" it punishes Achievement. ow woould you like ot have spent YEARS working yourself to the bone, to finnally build your business to a high level only to have the government sweep in, take the fruites of your labors and just give it to some slug not willing to put in the needed effort himself?

If that is REALLY what you believe in, I suggest you start by sending me a check for $5000.00 I need it much more than you do right now.

[Royal Dragon]

As Steve mentioned previously, Social Security, Medicare, ederly housing, etc., and others like these are all great Socialist programs that work,

Reply]
Social Security is not a Socialist program. That money is just a Governemnt forced savings account, that, by the way, prevents us from putting OUR money in better places to save for retirement. It is also constantly on the verge of going broke, so no, it does not work.

and I for one, are glad we have them. We need to put MORE $$$ into these programs, and once we get socialized/nationalized health care like the rest of the world,

Reply]
Why, so we can wait in line for months to get needed surgeries (like the rest of the world), or be told we do not qualify for them when our own Doctors say they are a necessity simply because some government bureaucrat who has never spent a day in Med school thinks he knows better them our Doctors? Do you REALlY want all of our medical services to be like Workers Comp claims?

We have the BEST Healthcare on the planet right now. And you want to fuck it up and make it some over loaded European Bureaucracy where NONE has quality healthcare? Are you on CRACK??

we can finally put the missing pieces of the puzzle back together and become the great society we should be, but if we continue to keep doing the same things we’ve been doing for the last 8 years, and expect to see different results, that would be called insanity!

Reply]
I am in agreement here, except I think in order to be the Great Country we USED to be, we need to go back to what we were when we were great.

[Royal Dragon]

Race has been a clear factor in this election.

And it matters to the people who are effected by it.


I don't want to develop an adverserial internet relationship w/you RD as I respect your views.

I think it best to disagree without being disagreeable, as arguing doesn't prove anything and really only serves to divide people.

The most important part of this election is not the dvisiveness and hate of the few, rather the out pouring of support and acceptance of the many.

To be honest and to change the focal point for a minuite, I'm seeing alot of good things coming out of this campain, one of which is some healing between racial and cultural devides.

I'm out.

Reply]
I see the opposite. Rather than a healing between racial divides, I see them worsening due to all the false accusations of racism where none exists. It's sickening, and just makes for greater separation between the various major groups of people, not just for those being falsely accused, but for the ones MAKING the false accusations as well.