Interracial couple denied marriage license

[Interloper]

Well, I don't believe in interracial marriages ... because I don't believe in race. But, what bothers me about his argument against interracial children is that, if they do have more problems, it's because of racism and racists. Don't matter if they're black or white or other, either. That's the problem, not the children. Of course, taking his argument to its logical conclusion: i.e., that people shouldn't marry because of what their children will encounter, then black people shouldn't have children either.

I agree.
That said, by the same reasoning the judged used, people of "certain IQs" or who have various genetic conditions, etc., shouldn't marry because of concern for the children, and... oh my, where is this leading?

[Michael]

Why do judges have any say on who gets married? The blood test is necessary for what? Family courts in the USA were created from a prevalent eugenics ideology and decided who could marry whom, who would be forcibly sterilized, who was eligible to have children, who was qualified to be parents, which children would be taken away and institutionalized, etc. Forced sterilization based on eugenics was still going on out in the open until the late 80's in the USA and taking people's children is still going on today, that's where CPS comes from.

This Louisiana judge's decision is the occasionally revealed, but ever-present result of eugenics ideology, which is really a justification for people playing god with others' lives.

[Steve James]

Yeah, Michael, here I agree; but, it used to be the norm. So, it doesn't seem to me to be part of a present day plan, only because it used to be much, much worse than this. Jews and Christians couldn't marry. Whites couldn't legally marry Asians (the law in CA wasn't changed until 1948. Not that the law really meant anything to a particular judge, who was rarely Asian --until the first (Huang) was appointed in 1959. Incidentally, he was the first Asian judge in the country). Anyway, took a lot of shit and lives to get those things changed. I do agree that there are people who want to practice eugenics, oh yeah, for real. And, they've been around for a while; don't need to tell me. Consequently, when I worry, I have a very clear idea of whom I'm worrying about --and we disagree there. This judge wasn't an elite or going according to some plan, except it was the same plan that instituted such laws in the 1670s --before there was even a country.

[grzegorz]

"I do ceremonies for black couples right here in my house," Bardwell said. "My main concern is for the children."

‘I feel the children will later suffer’
Bardwell said he has discussed the topic with blacks and whites, along with witnessing some interracial marriages. He came to the conclusion that most of black society does not readily accept offspring of such relationships, and neither does white society, he said.

"I don't do interracial marriages because I don't want to put children in a situation they didn't bring on themselves," Bardwell said. "In my heart, I feel the children will later suffer."

Life is hard and then you die...What's this judge thinking?

[meeks]

because I don't believe in race

well I believe in race, I just don't have any issues with it. Looking at my Chinese wife I cannot deny the fact that there's something strangely different about the shape of her eyes or the color of her skin compared to me...
I cannot understand how someone looks at a strawberry and says "it's not a strawberry - it's just a berry" and slots raspberries, blueberries and blackberries into the same 'bowl' and tries to ignore the fact they're all completely different items being consumed.
he's white, she's yellow. no big deal. If you feel better saying "I don't believe in race" that IMO is going a little too far in the opposite direction. If my sister suddenly told me "I'm marrying (insert name) - you know, the (insert color or country of origin) guy..." I'd be ecstatic - and my sister is hot, so no jokes about 'happy that *anyone* would finally marry her' - and btw, she's single and not married, no kids. And unless he was a complete douchebag to everyone around him all I'd think about (regarding children) would be how cute they'd be".
But Vancouver is one of the most ethnically/racially diverse cities I've ever been to. It's nickname is 'Hongcouver' because of all the asians. We have districts that are almost completely East Indian(49th & Fraser district), Italian (commercial drive), Chinatown, Greektown (Kitsilano), Japantown (near the docks) and a huge mix of races and colors mixed throughout. On some days it seems there are almost more mixed race couples than single race couples when I go out. But I can't understand turning a blind eye to the fact that someone is white and another is black. It's just a characteristic of that individual. Unless you use it in a negative connotation there's nothing bad about it. I scratch my head when I have to use the term 'Indo-Canadian' to describe a man who is from India. What if he is just visiting Canada for a wedding and going home after 2 weeks? He's not Canadian, he's Indian. If I go to China they don't call me Blondo-Chinese (light colored hair joke) or Cauco-Chinese or Amero-chinese. I'm bai ren (white person) and my friend Winston is hai ren (black person) and there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying that in their culture.

FWIW I also believe the opposite of anger is happiness, and to say the opposite is actually indifference is more about having an emotion vs not having an emotion - I have this argument with my sister everytime I get pissed off at something and she brings this shit up...

[Steve James]

Looking at my Chinese wife I cannot deny the fact that there's something strangely different about the shape of her eyes or the color of her skin compared to me...

Yeah, she looks different. But, what race are your kids? What race will their kids be if they marry people who don't look like them? Or, do you think that they'll be "mixed-race"?

Of course, I can see that people look different. But, that's meaningless. Races weren't created; they were invented by people who wanted to explain why they're superior. We all have a common ancestor. Just like your kids, and their kids, and my kids. Hey, try http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxgS9RKwKbU

[Darth Rock&Roll]

In the end it doesn't matter.

The Judge simply shouldn't be a judge. By definition he is incapable of being that which he is titled.
It is so blatantly obvious. Whether you accept the idea of ethnic differences and the reality of physical differences in appearance or not.

[meeks]

Of course, I can see that people look different. But, that's meaningless. Races weren't created; they were invented by people who wanted to explain why they're superior.

that's a pretty heavy statement. I'd liken to a method of categorization of why this guy's white, this guy's yellow, this guy's brown... but if you want to pin it on 'superior' on behalf of EVERY COUNTRY in the world that categorizes everyone the same way we do, then that's cool

[Steve James]

[Steve James]

but if you want to pin it on 'superior' on behalf of EVERY COUNTRY in the world that categorizes everyone the same way we do, then that's cool

Well, not "every" country does it, actually. France doesn't do it, nor does Nigeria, nor Japan ... but you're talking about "legal" categorization. Like I said, we all have common ancestors --even if we call them Adam and Eve. But, the superior thing transcends classification. That's a social thing that, unfortunately, is relatively unique to the United States (ok, and South Africa, and a few others). Here, in the United States, though, you have to see that the legal restrictions based on race were also implemented by supremacists. That was just accepted truth to them, socially. This judge we're talking about is an example of what was typical, and Constitutionally affirmed, in this country. Here, it was normal ... for 300+ years.

However, my inability to accept that position isn't based on how people look. But, like I asked, if you have kids, are they the race that they look like? or the race of their parents? or are they a new race?

[Wuyizidi]

These 'interracial' kids' futures sure look bleak









especially when compared to that of product of 100% pure marriage from this judge's neck of woods:

[Steve James]

Coincidentally, this poem is on the midterm exam I'm writing for Monday:

"Telephone Conversation"

The price seemed reasonable, location
Indifferent. The landlady swore she lived
Off premises. Nothing remained
But self-confession. "Madam," I warned,
"I hate a wasted journey--I am African."
Silence. Silenced transmission of
Pressurized good-breeding. Voice, when it came,
Lipstick coated, long gold-rolled
Cigarette-holder pipped. Caught I was foully.

"HOW DARK?" . . . I had not misheard . . . "ARE YOU LIGHT
OR VERY DARK?" Button B, Button A.* Stench
Of rancid breath of public hide-and-speak.
Red booth. Red pillar box. Red double-tiered
Omnibus squelching tar. It was real! Shamed
By ill-mannered silence, surrender
Pushed dumbfounded to beg simplification.
Considerate she was, varying the emphasis--

"ARE YOU DARK? OR VERY LIGHT?" Revelation came.
"You mean--like plain or milk chocolate?"
Her assent was clinical, crushing in its light
Impersonality. Rapidly, wave-length adjusted,
I chose. "West African sepia"--and as afterthought,
"Down in my passport." Silence for spectroscopic
Flight of fancy, till truthfulness clanged her accent
Hard on the mouthpiece. "WHAT'S THAT?" conceding
"DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS." "Like brunette."

"THAT'S DARK, ISN'T IT?" "Not altogether.
Facially, I am brunette, but, madam, you should see
The rest of me. Palm of my hand, soles of my feet
Are a peroxide blond. Friction, caused--
Foolishly, madam--by sitting down, has turned
My bottom raven black--One moment, madam!"--sensing
Her receiver rearing on the thunderclap
About my ears--"Madam," I pleaded, "wouldn't you rather
See for yourself?"

Wole Soyinka
(b.1934)

[Michael]

Just a funny side note: I was turned down for an apartment once here in Guangzhou because, "Foreigners always bring home different woman every night." Not my style, but some would take it as a compliment.

[Steve James]

That's hitting it on the head, Mike. It's not "race" as a descriptor that's a problem: it's "race" as a predictor that's destructive. As in the poem, there's no need to actually meet you; the landlord already knows that you're going to have orgies (probably with women who aren't foreigners --which, imo, is the "real" issue).

But, ok, I'll agree with any concept of "race" that doesn't depend on physical outward characteristics. I.e., everything that would matter if no one could see another person. (Michael, one day you might like to browse through John Rawls, "A Theory of Justice."

[Michael]

Thanks for the book suggestion. Just to complete the circle, I found a very nice apartment owned by a couple and the woman runs an English training school. She said they prefer foreigners because "we're cleaner" and especially because when we cook we don't use too much oil, which does get into the air and permeate everything under normal usage conditions in China. The male half of the couple was later disappointed when he visited me on a day when I was behind on housekeeping.