Interracial couple denied marriage license

[Steve James]

Yeah, I know you were kidding Interloper, but I also know that there are people who take it seriously; so, I seriously address it chapter and verse every time.

You're right. "Race" --as it is contrived in the US-- has Always been an instrument of social control and/or blatant oppression.

The beneficiaries of it have been the ones who created it in the first-place. They are also the ones who, in this country and the Americas, "created" the majority of the "mixed-race" people. Moreover, these people were considered "mixed" only because those who described them considered themselves as both "pure" and "superior." Race laws have Always been attempts to maintain that supremacy, by maintaining the purely imaginary idea of "racial purity."

So, if someone asks me why I don't subscribe, I merely point out that it has never benefited me, so I have no interest in maintaining it. Now, as far as human variation goes, I ain't blind; I like golden ladies. I might even prefer them, but I don't ever ask to see birth certificates. That's not my preoccupation.

Fo example, Leona Lewis is in the news today. Her father's "Afro-Guyanese"; her mom's Welsh. Ya think I care? Au contraire, mon ami ... ou mes enemis.

But, no, my dream is not to marry a white woman and destroy the white race. (I.e., another reason the judge didn't want to marry them). Sorry ... or tough nouggie. (Not directed at anyone, specifically, and certainly not to you 'loper. If I were a Jew in Germany after the Nuremburg laws, I'd be saying the same f-ing thing.

[Interloper]

Yep, the Genetic Prime Directive (Procreate>Replicate) conquers all!

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I see race classifications as arbitrary. Anyone's sperm can impregnate anyone's ovum.

Yep.

That would be an issue of species more so than race.


Now, I have found this page really to be dry, but overall worth reading, even if you don't like wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(clas ... man_beings)

[Interloper]

Darth,
See my post just above yours.
Love (or Genetic Prime Directive) really does conquer all, in the long run.

[meeks]

Because the whole issue of "race" is just so absurd

ok - this gave me a thought - I read Steve James' remark "I don't believe in race" as one of those "I don't see white person, yellow person, black person, I just see person" which is why I asked him about his comment. In fact I tried to use that in my example of various berries in confirming what he meant but was met with challenge about my own offspring. The term 'race' was used as a physical description - color. We all know that the term race in North American English is often used as a characterization of color although I bet someone will post a few examples where it ALSO might not be.

so am I mis-reading? was Steve's comment not as arrogant as I read it to be? I'm just tired of all the political correctness BS where we can no longer describe someone as 'white' or 'black' anymore and have to dance around the word when describing someone. Maybe I just lived in China too long, where saying he's yellow or he's white or he's black was of no social insult - it was just a description. When I read his remark as "I don't see color" it came across as pretty holier than thou to me. So if I misread it I stand corrected - it looks like your use of the word 'race' is different than our everyday use of the word 'race'. But now it looks like everyone has been pretty much pushed out of posting on this thread for fear of saying something that might be considered non-PC now...

[Steve James]

so am I mis-reading? was Steve's comment not as arrogant as I read it to be? I'm just tired of all the political correctness BS where we can no longer describe someone as 'white' or 'black' anymore and have to dance around the word when describing someone. Maybe I just lived in China too long, where saying he's yellow or he's white or he's black was of no social insult - it was just a description. When I read his remark as "I don't see color" it came across as pretty holier than thou to me. So if I misread it I stand corrected - it looks like your use of the word 'race' is different than our everyday use of the word 'race'. But now it looks like everyone has been pretty much pushed out of posting on this thread for fear of saying something that might be considered non-PC now...

Why don't you ask Steve?

[Michael]

I want to make it clear I'm not directing this at anyone, but making a general observation. There are people who make their living by playing semantics games, re-wording things, and influencing others to accept new terminology. It comes from the Behavioral Sciences in academia, goes into politics, and then filters into education, marketing, and advertising.

personnel ==> human resources
salesman ==> customer service representative ==> CSR
bomb ==> improvised exlosive device ==> IED
civilian casualties ==> collateral damage

These last two are not military terms, but political ones used by men in uniform when speaking to the press. It's been called "political correctness", but I just call it doublespeak. Orwell was actually trained in this discipline and did it on air for the BBC to persuade British women to believe the rubbish they'd been eating during the war was actually wonderful. It's meant to be confusing so you stop thinking critically about what's being done and focus endlessly on what's being said. People eventually use the double speak to comfort themselves regardless of what's actually happening. Words become salves for the obedient or weapons against outsiders without the actions behind the words having any real connection to their usage.

[Steve James]

Anyway, 1, I said "I don't believe in inter-racial marriages because I don't believe in race." Nowhere have I said that "I don't see color," and I have specifically said that I have no problem with being brown or being described as Black. Those, and your complaints about "political correctness BS" are all yours. I challenged the concept of "race", specifically as it's used in the US --and I pointed out how it's not used "everywhere" else. I challenged no one's children, either. I don't believe in "mixed race" ... because I don't "believe" in race. Yada, yada, yada ... but anybody can always ask me what I mean. As for PC, btw, I was part of the "Black is beautiful" generation. Got no problem with the term at all, just don't believe in a pure "black" or "Pure White" race.

[Steve James]

My Black African-American grandaughter.

... with her Black (and would smack anyone who'd say different) African-American great-grandmother.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I think Michael has touched upon something important.

"race" is being replaced via semantics. IE: it's not PC to say "race" anymore, but it's ok to use genotype and phenotype.

These terms basically outline the same thing, but leave out ethno-cultural context.

I believe we can nurture any ethno-cultural traits out of anyone and create in them a core belief system of whatever we choose.

I believe the whole idea of PC thinking and taboo slows our ability to truly understand because we have a tendency of not wanting to deal with our failures so much as we like to hold up our successes.

people take pride in the cultural and ethnic identity. Even their national identity. Frankly, if you got something to be proud of, then good on ya!

Steve, you raise it again when saying "and smack anyone who says different" in regards to the grandmother. So, that to me makes it apparent that she has been identified as white before and is offended by it?
If so why? isn't that racist? If someone called me hispanic or native (and it's happened), i'd be like ok, lol, but I wouldn't take offense. That is how people identify themselves and their social group.

Maybe 100 years from now we'll nurture that out of ourselves, but in the meantime, we have to keep mixing to keep that process going.

we're lucky being in a part of the world where it is more widely accepted than pretty much anywhere else. particularly Canada by my experience, but lately, i've travelled the world a little more and am finding that people in most western countries don't realy give a shit. My wife is Mauritian...just for the sake of pointing it out. lol

so, you can see why I'd be offended by people dissing mixed race marriage. I'm in a mixed race marriage. It rocks, we love each other and that's all there is to it.

fuckers like the judge can go sit on a spike, I'd spit in his face personally, but that's just me being all agitated, i tend to lose it.

[Interloper]

so am I mis-reading? was Steve's comment not as arrogant as I read it to be? I'm just tired of all the political correctness BS where we can no longer describe someone as 'white' or 'black' anymore and have to dance around the word when describing someone. Maybe I just lived in China too long, where saying he's yellow or he's white or he's black was of no social insult - it was just a description. When I read his remark as "I don't see color" it came across as pretty holier than thou to me. So if I misread it I stand corrected - it looks like your use of the word 'race' is different than our everyday use of the word 'race'. But now it looks like everyone has been pretty much pushed out of posting on this thread for fear of saying something that might be considered non-PC now...

Why don't you ask Steve?

[Steve James]

Steve, you raise it again when saying "and smack anyone who says different" in regards to the grandmother. So, that to me makes it apparent that she has been identified as white before and is offended by it?
If so why? isn't that racist? If someone called me hispanic or native (and it's happened), i'd be like

It's not my place to tell you the circumstances of her birth. But, her daughter, my ex., was offended when people thought she was Hispanic. She tried her best to get an Afro (in the 60s), but her hair was just too thin. Well, we once got assaulted because some guys didn't like a black guy walking with a white guy. That was part of my motivation for studying martial arts. But, "racist"? ... To not want to be called something that people force you to put on your application? She could have chosen to "be" White. She's whiter than lots of "White" people I know.

so, you can see why I'd be offended by people dissing mixed race marriage. I'm in a mixed race marriage. It rocks, we love each other and that's all there is to it.

"Dissing" mixed-race marriage? What do you mean by that? Whew...

[AllanF]

Frederick Douglass made a comment in the 1880s. His father was "white" and his mother "a slave." Because Douglass grew up to be an orator, lecturer,etc., he was admired by many. After a speech on day, he commented, "People are always asking me whether my intelligence came from my mother or my father. It's a typical American question."

Just like i am half English and half Scottish. I know they are not races but that is how i think of the subject, not in terms of race but of nationality.

Well, that's kinda the point isn't it? If ya exchange "race" for "nation," then it's just as accurate, no? Before the invention of "race" in the 17th century, people were described as being of nations. This is seen, for example, in the Bible. But, in the 18th, 19th and parts of the 20th centuries, it was also common for people to talk about the "Irish race." It took a long time for the Irish to be considered "white" in the United States. (See "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev). So, is there a "white" race at all? Or is it a categorization that lumps together people who look a certain way? If it's just a convenient categorization of the way people look, the shape of their eyes and noses, ok. Is that what it is, though? Not at all, the categorizations were for legal purposes, not aesthetics. So, I still wonder why people here have to identify their race on legal documents when it's written on their faces. (Actually, the real reason is that "race" is not always apparent when it comes to "mixes."

Well, AllanF, I have no illusions about getting rid of "race." Put it like this, the concept has been an advantage for some in this country, those who made the laws, and most of the "mixed race" children. That's just a fact. So, just because of that, I wouldn't accept the argument (DNA evidence to the contrary, notwithstanding). I.e., I ain't nobody's invention, noble and logical as it might seem to them.

The concept has been an obvious disadvantage for others. C'mon, that's why Mr. Judge wanted to prevent that couple from marrying .... because of the problems the children will face. Now, it's 2009; but I expect to be arguing this point for the rest of my lifetime --and I will, since I've been doing it for the last 40 years. But, it's simply not true that "race" has always been here and always will. It's more like there will always be those who favor using it.

Btw AllanF, in China, what "race" is your daughter? Are there special laws for mixed race Chinese?

(Btw, I have a love-child with a Spaniard; i.e., from Spain, a European. She's Spanish. Simple, no? "Is she light Spanish or dark?" Doh!)

First up Steve i get what you are saying. And i take your point about nation/race. Even in the UK Scots/Irish and Welsh are considered Celtic (though in reality what is "Celtic"?); English are considered Anglo-Saxon.
In China to the general public, my daughter is "foreign" race! As there are only two groups for China...Chinese people and everyone else. There are of course white foreigners and black foreigners but we are all foreigners. Legally that is also the way it is, you are either Chinese or you are not. There is no duel nationality here compared to say the UK. So at the moment she is "legally" Chinese (though this will change when we return to the UK, as a Chinese passport isn't worth the paper it is written on) but she will never be considered Chinese as she doesn't look Chinese.

My daughter looks more foreign to Chinese people because her skin is white and her hair is brown, but her facial features take after my wife in eye shape and face shape. But if you are asking me to legally clasify my daughter in a "race box" then i wouldn't know what to tell you. Nor would it matter to me.

To quote Shakespeare's Shylock "If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?"

[AllanF]

Or as Robert Burns put it: (I believe that Fredrick Douglass was fond of this song)

A Man's a Man fir a'that!

For a' that.
Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that.
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

[Steve James]

In China to the general public, my daughter is "foreign" race! As there are only two groups for China...Chinese people and everyone else. There are of course white foreigners and black foreigners but we are all foreigners. Legally that is also the way it is, you are either Chinese or you are not.

First off, glad you understand that I mean no offense. Second, "national" identity in China (from what you say) functions the same way "nation" has always functioned. I.e., either you are one of us or you are from somewhere else. That true for Native Americans and Africans and Norwegians. The way "race" functioned here was to create "foreigners" out of people who had been here for generations: the same way the Nazi Nuremburg laws did for Jews, gypsies, etc. I.e., people who should have been citizens were considered "not quite American" and consequently had their rights (civil, and otherwise) restricted --solely because of their "race." There was not even, until the last census, any other choice, not matter what the color or the extent of admixture. My wife's mom is "legally" a member of the "Black" race, to which, for her own reasons, she does not object; rather, she is proud.

Did I ever tell ya'll about my complaint with the survey I get every year? If I haven't, ... well, in profession, there are only about 2% who self-identify as Black. So, every year, there are surveys to find out how many of us are there, or are left. I get the survey. I don't believe in "race", but I know what they're trying to do. And, fwiw, I look in the mirror every day and know how people would identify me. Thus, it doesn't bother me to check the "Black" box. It's not really about race. But, when I check that box, I get another pull down menu with the following choices: Ghanaian, Trinidadian, Jamaican, Nigerian, African American? .... er, "African American" .... wtf? I can buy a plane ticket to Ghana, Trinidad, Jamaica or Nigeria anytime. How do I get to African America? But, some might say that that's just semantics ... me f-ing with words. Yeah, right. That's not my (the) problem. The f-ed up thing is that I don't even get the choice to pick "American." It's not an option. That truly pisses me off.

As to mixed race, I'll only repeat --for the record-- that I believe that we are all "mixed." So, calling me a Black American (i.e, "nationally") would just be preferable. I am truly sorry if that offends anyone.