BNP on Question Time tonight

[GrahamB]

So, whose watching it? I think the whole country.

Currently 500 demonstrators outside BBC headquarters:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8321157.stm

What do we all think?

Let him speak I say - the sad tosser can't open his mouth without putting his foot in it. I'm sure he'll be given just enough rope to hang himself.

[mrtoes]

I won't watch it as I don't have a TV, but I concur. The more information about what they really think the better, at the moment lots of ignorant people are voting for them because they feel ignored by the main parties. If they realise what dangerous lunatics they are perhaps they'll think twice. Or not.

[GrahamB]

b.t.w. 'person with no TV but an Internet connection' - I believe this website was made just for you:

http://www.tvcatchup.com/

Live TV on the internet - it just works!

[RobP2]

I don't have a problem with him speaking, if you ban him you just turn him into a free-speech martyr. And if nothing else it might force the mainstream parties to look at some of the issues that people are concerned about - in fact there have been a few programmes on the views and fears of the "white working class" lately.
There's a very good book - The Likes of Us by Michael Collins - that touches on a lot of those points. I don't think any growing BNP support represents a rise of racism as much as people feeling ignored and left out (though obviously there are racist issues out there too)

[Darth Rock&Roll]

let me get this straight.

not so long ago, nazi germany caused the greatest amount of damage to the people and cities of teh uk and now some people want to start a nazi perty in britain?

that's just messed up!

well done UK! you've taken the insanity of modern life to a whole new level.
But then, Britain has always been good at leading the way whether the idea is good or bad!

lol

[mrtoes]

My girlfriend wrote her Masters thesis on how multiculturalism in the UK has been turned into a scapegoat for the failure of mainstream parties to deal with the issues of the white working class. Very interesting topic.

Darth - actually there's a number of extreme right wing parties that have been popular in European countries for a while, we're just catching up with the trend. La Pen of the National Front won the first round of the French Presidential elections a while back, Swissland, Austria, Belgium, Holland, Norway and Denmark all have their crazies.

It's not all cosy socialism over here you know

Matthew.

[yusuf]

..well there are three viewpoints...

1) For - He got a million votes in the last european elections so shoul dappear on a publically paid for station (if the rest can so should he)
2) Against - He is in a party that doesn;t eblieve in democracy and would abolish parliamnet, therefore isn;t a democrat and should be refused airtime

3) He is a nazi fuck who believes in the supremacy of one race over all others, he hates Jews and Muslims, says the holocaust was a myth, believes disabled people should be euthanised, says gays should be killed even though it has recently emerged he tooted the pink flute for years, most of his lieutenants have been convicted of racist violence, would deport anyone who isn't white, wants everyone in the country to be given an assault rifle and ammo, his party members deliberately went into Asian areas over teh last few years and instigated violence that led to riots...etc etc

I'm in the viewpoint 3 camp. Don't talk to racists, fuk them up.....

[Steve James]

My two pence. I'd rather have him on national television saying what he believes than have him say that "see, the gov't is on 'their' side, and that's why we have to take control." That basically plays into the fear-factor which drives the whole thing. National Socialism made the Germans feel really good about themselves; and it was a really good program for some people. It was the "white supremacy" angle that made it shit for the rest of the world.

In that, it was not much different than the US. The BNP guy stands for citizenship and national identity based on "race" (and ethnicity or culture). They arge that "other" races, ethnicities, cultures are the (and a) cause of "national" problems and are, consequently, bringing the culture down. "Nationalism" is seen as a good thing; then the only question is who should be part of it. That's when we see how "good" it really is, and there are varying degrees. Many if not all countries are "nationalist" in the way they define national identity. All have extreme-right nationalist parties. In some of those countries, the extreme right has had enough votes to be included in the government. However, in the past, when they have gotten 'too' strong, the other parties (Green, Democratic, Christian, etc., have banded together to defeat them. That is the historical trend for parties like this.

So, it's good when they get air time, imo. At least, the people who only know that 'they are fighting for the race/nation' have a chance to hear for themselves. It's only fair. Now, there is a philosophical, a moral, issue about the idea that these parties would also like to unravel 'democracy.' IOW, they want people to vote for them, so that there won't be any more voting. IOW, they want to use democracy to remove democracy. Well, if I was one of those people who was going to be his victim, imo it'd be "morally right" in fact a moral obligation to protect myself. In that light, I "probably" feel like those "3%"ers that we were talking about a while back.

[yusuf]

well the NAzi fuck proved the point for us.. the debate did make him look like an idiot.. straneg because in France Jean Marie Le Pen got accolades for his tv performance

anyway.. the reaction is best summed up by a cartoon



..you have to love Britain for the way they shit on all these extremist weirdos...

[RobP2]

I think it was certainly obvious that he is trying to present a reasonable modest face to the public and hide is extremism under a cloak of pseudo-respectability. However I don't think the other politicians on the panel did a much better job than he did - and there's the problem.

Jack Straw blathered around the question of immigration, which, like it or not is a big concern for people in a lot of places. The Lib-Dem guy came across as the most honest and straightforward of the three I thought. Bonny Greer had some good points but she lost me on the Ice Age reference.

The question of "indegenous" was interesting and I think highlighted one of the main reasons for growth in BNP support - people feeling "outside" their own country. Right or wrong that is a common perception and I do think der fuhrer had a point when he said "you wouldn't say to a Maori he is not indigenous"

There is a feeling that the white working class are the only group of people in this country you can freely abuse. It's not new, as a kid I remember the feeling in the East End of people having gone through the Blitz and "won the war" being left to live in a bombsite for 30 years and then having other communities "forced" on them. As it happened, some NF activity aside, people there on the whole did a pretty good job of living together and getting on with it.

Then we had the growth of polictical correctness amongst the local councils - things like not being allowed to fly a union jack flag on your house or language being modified (black bin liners, baa baa black sheep, etc) Again how much is true and not is almost irrelevant, that was the general perception.

On top of that I think in the 80s the Labour party moved away from its roots, with the likes of Blair and the other "professional politicians". Since then the working class has become pretty much demonised by the media as lazy overweight brainless chavs. Given all that I think it's testament to local communities that they do all, for the most part, get along so well.

I think the issues are far less about race (though of course there are still some problems and there are extremists in all camps) and more economic - I heard an Asian guy recently complaining about Poles undercutting him - racist or eonomic? Given that I don't think the BNP will get much more support than they already have. I also don't think any of the main parties will address the issue, it's simply not worth their while in terms of votes or self-interest

[GrahamB]

The question of "indegenous" was interesting and I think highlighted one of the main reasons for growth in BNP support - people feeling "outside" their own country. Right or wrong that is a common perception and I do think der fuhrer had a point when he said "you wouldn't say to a Maori he is not indigenous"

Slight difference there - British people are mixed bag of blood lines from Romans/Celts/Saxons/Normans/Vikiings/You name it! We're a mixed bag to start with, never a single ethnic race. In contrast Maori (although there are no 'pure blood' Maori left anymore, as far as I know, so it's perhaps it's a bad example) were a genuine indigenous people.

The whole idea that you can say there's an ethnically "british" race is flawed to start with, isn't it?

[yusuf]

.. mostly this is economic but the problem is that Griffin and his nazi cohorts basic premise is that white people are superior to all others... apart from Jews who are scum like the rest of us darkies (verbatim a guy actually said that to me) ..

The issues our govt needs to address are the basic flaws in our society (NOT RACIAL), better economic environment to create jobs in deprived areas (irrespective of what colour that ghetto is), access to education in those white, black, brown ghettos, more screening on ability and aptitude of people coming to live in the UK, an overhaul of the political asylum regulations which mean someone who has schlepped through Europe to get here must claim Political asylum in one of the other safe countries they have travelled through, the reversal of some of the insane PC behaviour we see...

etc etc

[RobP2]

Slight difference there - British people are mixed bag of blood lines from Romans/Celts/Saxons/Normans/Vikiings/You name it! We're a mixed bag to start with, never a single ethnic race. In contrast Maori (although there are no 'pure blood' Maori left anymore, as far as I know, so it's perhaps it's a bad example) were a genuine indigenous people.

The whole idea that you can say there's an ethnically "british" race is flawed to start with, isn't it?

True, but does indigenous mean ethnic? If you had to answer "what are you" do you say British or do you say 1/5th Norman half Dutch and two thirds Hobbit?

My "genetic" background is French Hugenot from the 17th century but I would class myself as indigenous British. Same as a pal of mine - in fact he used to wear a tee shirt that said Black British and used to take a lot of stick for it. It's cool to acknowledge your roots, but that was my point, it's not always perceived as cool to acknowledge your British roots

[GrahamB]

in⋅dig⋅e⋅nous  [in-dij-uh-nuhs] Show IPA
–adjective
1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa.
2. innate; inherent; natural (usually fol. by to): feelings indigenous to human beings.

[GrahamB]

RobP - yeah, you do look a bit French.