Wrestling with my Demons

[Chris Fleming]

"I personally think it has something to do with growing up in a tradition that encourages argumentation and skepticism more than blind faith."

Seems to be an implication there that if someone was to actually believe what the Bible says, than one has "blind faith". Sounds like an accusation. I've wrote about what the Bible says about faith before, and in it, you don't see anything about faith being blind. That concept is more of a modern term, usually used by people who don't study/don't care to study the Bible and therefore have to come up with a negative statement against those who do, for some reason.

"a book like Ezekiel, it's clearly the rantings of a man"

I wouldn't be so quick as to dismiss something as "clearly" anything. If anything, this belies a modernistic attitude toward God and whatnot, which is not the consensus, even among Jews on their own scriptures. It's an interesting stance some seem to have--that one can have a relationship with God and yet ignore the bulk of what He has set down as scripture and compartmentalize it under the label of "not to be taken seriously". If there is something within those "not to be taken seriously" books that jives against someone's philosophy, then I guess it is easy to move on from there feeling justified.

[Interloper]

It's very likely that demon-like beings such as these found their way into Jewish scripture via oral folklore and cultural beliefs that predate Judaism.

Funny how goats take the rap for being symbols of Evil Beings... in cultures where goat are/were part of the ecosystem both wild and domestic. Maybe their randy sexual behavior (the origin of "horny" ) contributed to that, along with their typically-amber/yellow eyecolor and oblong-shaped pupils. In Greece, the "Hairy One" takes the form of the god Pan, goats being a big part of the Greek landscape. And let's not forget satyrs and fauns, both part-goat, part-man. Many mythologies draw from the animals that were part of their creators' natural environment, and since goats in some way, shape or form are endemic to the Near- and Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia, they constitute a large part of the mythical landscape as well.

The scriptural quotes from Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalm 106 given in my earlier post, and another passage from 2Chr.11:15 include two different ancient Hebrew words for "demon".

Both Leviticus and 2 Chronicles use the Hebrew word "saiyr" (saw-eer), which means "the hairy one", and by extension, as in these two passages, "a shaggy haired devil". This word is literally associated with a male goat kid originally, "the hairy one", and is used in the vast majority of Jewish scriptural passages where the word "goat" appears.

Both Deuteronomy and Psalm 1065 use the ancient Hebrew word "shed" (shade), which literally means "demon" (daemon) or malignant devil.

[Steve James]

Chris, from my limited knowledge, I'd say yeah, that pride is one of the reasons Iblis rebels. Someone more knowledgeable than I should comment on the relation of Iblis to Shaitan, though. And, it'd be interesting to hear more in depth about the recording angels. Those angels are not guardians; instead they try to influence the person, who is free to choose whichever path he wills. Otoh, iinm, they are not like the "good angel/devil" combination that we see in cartoons --one who says "do it" and the other who says "don't." Instead, on Judgment Day when the Maker asks, "Have you sinned?" (not that it'd be necessary), the recording angels will step up to correct your testimony.

[bailewen]

I wouldn't be so quick as to dismiss something as "clearly" anything. If anything, this belies a modernistic attitude toward God and whatnot, which is not the consensus, even among Jews on their own scriptures.

First of all, by cutting out the second half of that sentence, you vastly misrespresent the initial statement. A man in the midst of divine ecstasy.All the prophets of the original testament are considered to be the word of God spoken through man. That's the definition of a prophet. But the books of prophecy are not possible to be followed in a particularly literal way. Which brings me to my second point.

It's an interesting stance some seem to have--that one can have a relationship with God and yet ignore the bulk of what He has set down as scripture and compartmentalize it under the label of "not to be taken seriously". If there is something within those "not to be taken seriously" books that jives against someone's philosophy, then I guess it is easy to move on from there feeling justified.

It's all deadly serious but it is also simply not possible to take all the books and all the contents equally. If you avoid a metaphorical or at times allegorical or, as in the case of the prophets, a highly symbolic or even kaballistic interpretation, then you are attempting the impossible as the Bible is riddled with contradictions. The angel on the wheels of fire with the 4 faces and all that at the beggining of Ezekiel is at the core of all sorts of Kabalistic beliefs and even presents a "riddle" as to the essential nature of man in a similar way that the Sphynx of Egypt does with it's virgin breasts, eagles wings, lions haunches and bulls chest.

The other reason so many Jews "for some reason" (it's no secret) read little beyond the Pentateuch is that those are the books of Moses. They are the core of our belief system. All the other's are like add-ons. They are Haf-Torah. They are our holy books but they just don't take the same prominence in our belief. My own Torah only contains the 5 Books of Moses. When things like the Psalms or the Prohpets are brought up in discussion, I have to go online or consult the Christian Bible that I keep in the house for just such occasions.

In my experience debating these things with my Christian friends, the prophets get elevated importance because they are the so-called "proof" that Jesus is the messiah. That's the part where I say that the argument is more faith than reason. It's a circular argument that pre-supposes Jesus status and then goes back after the fact to find back up in many of the "extra" books.

[edit]
p.s. ignoring the bulk of what He has set down as scripture and compartmentalize it under the label of "not to be taken seriously" is exactly how many of us Jews view the decision of most Christians to ignore most of the law set down in Deuteronomy. Apparently it's "outdated".

[bailewen]

btw, Doc,

Thank you very much. I am fairly interested in the subject and am not actually taking a position that there is no old testament mention of demons. My difference of opinion with Chris is more about what, specifically, they are and on what role they play in the big picture of faith and everything else. My Hebrew is only so-so. I am not going to have time to go over the passages you referenced in the detail that they deserve for a day or two. With the Hebrew terms in hand I can go line by line over a side by side Hebrew-English version as is my occasional hobby. And thank you also for helping me fulfill the pledge of the Schma. I kind of let my religious practice slide over the past year. Even Shifu criticized me for it. lol. He's a buddist at heart but rather than preach Buddism his question to me was, "What spiritual practice do you do?" And, "Have you been practicing lately?" He actually seems to think that while no particular practice is important, the lack of any practice will, in the end, hamper martial arts training because at some point, you need to start learning directly from the universe around you and spiritual/religious practice strengthens those "muscles".

[Doc Stier]

The Torah makes reference to a scapegoat, the goat of Azazel by lot, which was taken away into the wilderness on the day of Atonement (Lev.16:20-22). Here it is said "Aaron shall lay both of his hands upon the head of the live goat, and shall confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting these upon the head of the goat, and shall then send it away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness. And the goat shall bear upon it all their iniquities into an uninhabited land."

Traditionally, the goat was thus conducted to a mountain named Tzuk, now called el-Muntar, said to be located in those times at a distance of ten Sabbath days journey from Jerusalem. At this place, the Judean desert was believed to begin. Here the goat was set free, and left to survive or die on its own as God willed.

This law of Moses was apparently modified at a later time due to one such occasion when the scapegoat later returned to Jerusalem after merely being set free. The return of the scapegoat was considered a particularly evil omen, as if the sins of the people had been returned and restored to them. In order to prevent other scapegoats from returning in the future, the man in charge of freeing the goat was instructed to push the unfortunate beast over the edge of the extremely steep mountainside, insuring that it would break its legs and die, and thus never return to Jerusalem.

As the recipient of the collective sins of the people, the goats selected by lot for Azazel became associated with evil and with the personifications of evil...especially the demons lead by the angel Azazel (Hebrew: עזאזל), the most mysterious supernatural being in Jewish sacred literature. These demons were referred to as the Se'irim, or goat-demons, who haunted the Judean desert, and to whom most primitive Semitic tribes offered sacrifices.




Sigil of Azazel

[Chris Fleming]

"But the books of prophecy are not possible to be followed in a particularly literal way."

I would wonder then what you mean by "literal". No, this is not sophistry on my part, like quibbling on what the word "is" is, but actually wondering what prophecy the Jews (of your particular persuasion) believe is not literal. What is it then?

The problem, I'm guessing is:

"a highly symbolic or even kaballistic interpretation"

that is, perhaps you believe in symbolism to the point of analysis paralysis. When God told David that He will build him a house, He sure did. Now, I actually agree with you (except for the kaballistic stuff--to me (and to most Jews, that I've seen anyway) that stuff is nonsensical and extra-Biblical to the point of absurdity) that there are further layers of symbolism regarding this, but fact is fact, many prophecies that were made in Old Testament times came to actuality in Old Testament times. Why make it to be so complicated to the point of throwing up your hands and not bothering with it?

"The other reason so many Jews "for some reason" (it's no secret) read little beyond the Pentateuch is that those are the books of Moses. They are the core of our belief system."

and

"exactly how many of us Jews view the decision of most Christians to ignore most of the law set down in Deuteronomy."

In that case, shouldn't you be getting your Levite to do some burnt offerings for you?

[bailewen]

Being a Levite myself, I could do those on my own except for that rather annoying detail of the temple being gone which we could rebuild except, oh yeah, that would start World War III. It's a simple fact that there's something like 200+ commandments which can no longer be fulfilled for that very reason. Fortunately, we don't believe in any hell other than the one that people create for themselves here on earth.

(except for the kaballistic stuff--to me (and to most Jews, that I've seen anyway) that stuff is nonsensical and extra-Biblical to the point of absurdity)

Only to comparatively uneducated Jews. The Kabala that you find in your average Lower Haight bookstore in SF, sure. But the actual original stuff, the "real" Kabala, that is taught primarily by, ironically, mainly just the most orthodox of Jews. I take most of my own Kabalistic interpretation from the Habad writings.

that is, perhaps you believe in symbolism to the point of analysis paralysis.

It is mainstream, traditional, even orthodox Jewish teaching that all Torah is to be interpreted on at least 4 levels.

- Literal/superficial: David built a temple
- Metaphorical/Allegorical: Examine the proportions and building materials of the temple as a metaphorical map of the human soiul.
- Numerological aka gemaitria: Deconstruction of sentences of even individual words to see what is implied by the choice of certain letters. Looking beyond even the apparent story and going straight the divine revelation of the letters themselves.
- Mystical/Kaballistic: Deconstructing the text according to the encoded messages which can not be interpreted purely rationally but rather more through prayer and meditation. The non-rational meanings which have been passed down through the generations. The "right brain" aspects of apparent contradiction but never in contradiction with the preceding levels.

These 4 layers of interpretation are 100% mainstream. They have been a part of traditional Jewish orthodoxy for many centuries and rather than leading to some sort of "paralysis", on the contrary, they have lead to massive explosion in the breadth and depth of scholarship on the subject.

[Doc Stier]

Well, in that regard, the original liturgical rites and ceremonies of the Israelites, which are described in the Torah, were dealt a serious, near mortal wound by the destruction of Soloman's First Temple in Jerusalem and subsequent captivity in Babylon. Later revived upon returning to Palestine, the old Israelite religion finally came to a complete end with the fatal destruction of Herod's Second Temple in Jerusalem at the hands of Roman Legions commanded by General Titus in the year 70 AD.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/jewishtemple.htm

The destruction of Herod's Second Temple, combined with the wholesale execution of the High Priests and Levites, and the dispersion of the Jewish people throughout the Roman Empire thereafter, often referred to as the Diaspora, saw the permanent end of all Temple rituals and ceremonies.

As a result, the Jewish faith of today was essentially reconstructed at that time for worship in the synagogues only, due to the absence of a Temple in Jerusalem, without ritual sacrifices offered according to Mosaic Torah Law (Torat Moshe תּוֹרַת־מֹשֶׁה) as before.

[Doc Stier]

...that rather annoying detail of the temple being gone which we could rebuild except, oh yeah, that would start World War III.

Without question, the deliberate destruction by Israel of the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount would surely ignite WWIII. However, if it was destroyed by a natural disaster, such as a cataclysmic earthquake or tornado beyond human control, or even accidentally by Muslim attacks against Israel, from Iran for example, the Israeli government could then potentially take full control of the Temple Mount again by eminent domain.

A natural disaster in particular, being essentially an "act of God", would have to be interpreted as God's Will regarding the continued presence of a Muslim shrine on the most holy site in Judaism. Anything else would likely generate a disaster of another kind, with a possible global impact.

[Darthwing Teorist]

I don't know if it was said, but it sounds like Artie Lange should take some jujitsu lessons.

PS:
Especially defense against knife attacks. Remember the basics: Step 1: get wrist control. Step 2: pull out your gun.

[Chris Fleming]

"Being a Levite myself, I could do those on my own except for that rather annoying detail of the temple being gone which we could rebuild except, oh yeah, that would start World War III. It's a simple fact that there's something like 200+ commandments which can no longer be fulfilled for that very reason."

That's cool, I was just noting how you said "us Jews" in reference to Christians not practicing the OT law, which seemed as a kind of accusation or indictment, when "you Jews" don't either.

On that note, it would be especially funny if in God's sovereignty that the Dome of the Rock would be hit by an Arab missile. As it says in the Psalms, "He who sits in the heavens shall laugh". Not that this kind of event is a laughing matter, but I believe that even God, actually especially God, has a sense of irony.

[shawnsegler]

Don't be summoning demons on the site, Doc.

Cthullhu might not understand as he's our patron demon.

S- just sayin

[Darth Rock&Roll]

The demons have already been summoned. the problem is that people expect them to manifest as horrible goblins and other such schoolboy erroneous thinking.

demons manifest through individuals.

the gun, the bomb, the missile, the nuclear weapon, the military biotech, engineered disease, the madman who sends thousands to their deaths, the "leader" who with a stroke of a pen massacres thousands more.

If people could well and true recognize what demons really were, there would be less of them manifest.

[Doc Stier]

Don't be summoning demons on the site, Doc.

shawnsegler:

Kindly retract this malicious accusation, sir.

I didn't and wouldn't wish such a thing anywhere, least of all a Holy Site of any kind.

Blessings of Light and Love to All ~



Doc