chimerical tortoise wrote:AllanF,
Sorry, came across as a bit of a big asshole there, and I did misread economic colonialism as imperialism. What's more, I think that I confused your opinion with Kato's posted news article. Hence the dragging in of other stuff.
Not a problem normally i would have let it slide without comment but was in a bad mood yesterday. Water under the bridge.
chimerical tortoise wrote:imho your opinion on the politburo's fear of its people is an opinion, no more no less. I don't agree with it entirely at all. But I've met plenty of (mainly) Americans with even more radical opinions while I was living in China, i.e. sitting next to a middle-aged UC professor in an otherwise normal airport who kept looking around and saying to his wife, "look at the people around us, they're all so afraid and it's so evident" which was not so evident to me, sitting right next to him. I could say that it's the politburo's purpose to keep public harmony and while that probably sounds more big brotherly, it's an opinion as well.
I never stated it as anything other than an opinion and you're opinon that this is not the case is also exactly that, your opinion! Furhtermore to say "that it's the politburo's purpose to keep public harmony" is firstly simply spin on the same opinion. Indeed we can ask the question why would they be worried/concerned about loosing public harmony if they were in fact not afraid of the people? The example of the UC Prof saying the Chinese people are afraid, is redundant in this case as i was referring to the politburo not the people en mass.
chimerical tortoise wrote:Sub-Saharan Africa being one of the foci in my coursework (and having spent time there too), with the caveat that everywhere is quite different, everyone that I met/asked did not have the perspective you highlighted. So I think it is fair to say that this is your opinion.
My "opinion" (not disagreeing with you but as this is the internet that is all anyone will give, yourself included )was based on comments made on various articles on the BBC website related to this very issue,eg. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8314534.stm.
As you can see there is a fair cross section of opinion from African nations and people. As ever nothing is simply black or white, mostly grey.
chimerical tortoise wrote:There are others that are also unhappy about the part about importing labour (myself included), but still concede that the overall impact of Chinese investment across Africa is greatly more beneficial than the unilateral aid model, and the neoliberal economic model popularised by Europe/North America that utterly destroyed many existing governmental infrastructures.
You are merely reiterating things i have already said. What is more i never refuted this point, rather IMO it is a short term benefit. Again not saying the current western approach is good.
chimerical tortoise wrote:Afaik, China already has naval units in the Gulf of Aden, they've been on duty for a few months now. To my knowledge there are a great many countries' navies there and not all of these countries are economic empires, or hold economic colonies. I'd like to hear your opinion here, does this count as economic imperialism?
You are quite right China and most developed countries have had a naval presence in the gulf of Aden. However this is not a unilateral move, it is part of an international policing policy. Where they are not stationed in one place but escorting ships to and from a danger zone. There lies the difference. That said China was/is sensitive to the fact that if they docked too soon it may well have been perseved as the first step towards Imperial colonialism. And therefore the ships were ordered to stay at sea for as long as was possible. They eventually docked (in which country escapes me right now) and were well received.
With such a large and growing presence in Africa it is clear that the leaders of China have these thoughts on their minds (whether they are trying to avoid the trap of imperialism or they have ambitions for it, is pure speculation at this time.) In my experience the average person in the street does see China as being the world power and i have had many people tell me that China will control the world. We can argue about what exactly they mean by that but if the desire is there in the street you can bet your bottom dollar it is there with the leaders.
However this is not addressing the query you put forth, firstly my point was in regard to colonialism, as Steve James has pointed out refers to making a colony. So what is a colony? Dictionary definition via dictionary.com: a group of people who leave their native country to form in a new land a settlement subject to, or connected with, the parent nation.
It is clear that with Chinese state owned companies employing a huge work force in Africa we can call this colonialism. These companies though officially ( i assume) subject to the rule of law in the host country, most definitely answer first and foremost to the parent.
Imperialism on the other hand is the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies. None of these countries involved in the naval policing of the Gulf of Aden are extending their own county's rule or authority over foreign countries. So we can not say this is imperialism.
Economically, the US is still the biggest drain (exporter) of African resources. People accuse the USA of continued imperialism, so what is the difference between what the USA has done/is doing and what China is doing now? Military presence? Definately, and this bring me back to the initial point. With sporadic reports of incidents against Chinese nationals in Africa/Veitnam etc. Will the governmant sit back and do nothing to secure its interests? At present yes as there is not need to take action, if one man falls there are 100 to take his place. Will it always be this way? As a point it is not, up to now, interested in getting involved with international affairs unless they directly effect China, will there be a point when they desire to have more control of their foreign interests? This is why i said time will tell.
Steve James has raised a pertinent point, "I think the immediate question is whether it is good for the particular African country involved at this time." Indeed we can expand on that, good in the short term or good in the long term? Which is more pressing or important? What is the pay off? Again is this any different to the USA...not in my opinion But why do we criticize the USA so much, then are asked to pipe down when the same criticism is leveled at China for the same reasons? seems a little hypocritical to be accused or hypocrisy when in fact the i have not denied that the USA/UK (we still have the Falkland Islands) have in the past and indeed now are doing the same thing.