Masters, Madmen and the Monkeys They Spank

[ashe]

hmmm. theres a lot here. i see his point, and i think it applies in 99.999999% of cases, but what happens if you really meet someone worth following?

of course it's a fine line.

[Dale Dugas]

If you meet someone you want to follow and they have real skills, then you follow them learn from them and move forward with developing real skills.

I think he is looking at more of the McDojo kind of martial arts schools that foster non skills versus real skills.

[Bhassler]

Did you go to high school? Did you're teachers there pass knowledge on to you?

Irony, anyone?

[Bhassler]

I think any type of criticism of martial-arts culture loses much of it's meaning when it fails to consider the context from which that culture developed and the role it fills within the larger culture in which it resides. I consider this article more of a dogmatic rant than anything else. Of course, my experiences are not his, and no doubt he has encountered enough BS to make him think that such a rant is both warranted and beneficial, so maybe I'm just lucky...

[GrahamB]

This, above all else, I cannot subscribe to. There is nowhere else in our lives as free people we would accept such nonsense, but put on a kung fu uniform and it’s suddenly to hell with common sense. Sorry, no dice. If someone comes up to me claiming to be Jesus, you better believe I’m going to be checking his wrists for holes.

The guy has obviously never been to Church!

[Darth Rock&Roll]

sifu = more than just teacher

sidai= more than just student

respect = respect. who grovels but fools?

I agree with some of the sentiments but do not put some things on par. My highschool algebra lessons have rendered unto me absolutely nothing. I don't use algebra. I could speak, understand, spell and count before I even entered school, but I won't diminish the value of a educational system or the schools within it. I won't put them on par with individual quests for knowledge and individual pursuits of discipline. They are entirely different things.

For one thing, it is mandatory that we attend a school. We choose to pursue martial study. Two utterly different approaches to taking on learning.

I believe some of what he is saying is an attempt at diminishing the student/teacher relationship that is part and parcel to virtually all martial training.
Even western boxing, you shut the fuck up and do what your coach tells you to. IN mma class it's the same thing or get the fuck out. So maybe this guy has a problem with authority when it comes right down to it? I don't put grade school teachers on par with the teachers who enter your life because you choose tehm to do so. Even when you get to uni, you are lucky if you can develop a relationship with a prof that gets you to a TA position and helps you to learn that little bit more than everyone else and you better believe that this is a form of teacher / student relationship as well.

YOur teacher is your friend, but he's not your pal or your chum, you are not peers .
I suspect the writer has had an experience where he realized the folly of his own behaviours and is mad about it, or he is blanket treating all kungfu methods because of american strip mall dojo phenomenon.

Either way, he's barking up the wrong tree. From my perspective anyway. I don't think he has the correct in an overall sense. I think he is wrapping falsehoods in truths and presenting the whole as a truth.

anyway..just my opinion.

[Bär]

I think any type of criticism of martial-arts culture loses much of it's meaning when it fails to consider the context from which that culture developed and the role it fills within the larger culture in which it resides. I consider this article more of a dogmatic rant than anything else. Of course, my experiences are not his, and no doubt he has encountered enough BS to make him think that such a rant is both warranted and beneficial, so maybe I'm just lucky...

Yeah, I've not really encountered this at any of the 4 different MA 'schools' I've been a part of either. Not even in YMCA judo. But I guess I'm lucky too, and it helps that I could smell a McDojo before that term existed.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Did you go to high school? Did you're teachers there pass knowledge on to you?

Irony, anyone?

indeed, which brings it back to: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/misspelling

[Andy_S]

Some good points, but Bobbe could use an editor - that was a looooooong rant.

RE: Masters, disciples, etc
As BHassler says: Cultural context is everything.

East Asian society had different social and educational norms to us, and still does, to an extent. Living in the Far East while coming from a western, liberal-democratic background, I am pretty cynical about it all - particularly as this hierarchical culture is so easily abused, as we regularly see, for eg, in the behaviour in South Korean conglomerates - but OTOH, I think one needs to understand the whys and wherefores of tradition.

Of course, Master-Guru Fred "The Fist" Smith demanding kowtows and an oath of obedience at his Black Belt McSchool of Chinese Karate and Ninja Knifefighting in Momsapplepieville, Kansas, is a ridiculous and utterly false cultural construct.

[Bär]

[Andy_S]

Bar:

Goddamit! Master-Guru Fred "The Fist" Smith of the Black Belt McSchool of Chinese Karate and Ninja Knifefighting in Momsapplepieville, Kansas, actually exists? Dayam.

BTW, the chap on the left looks like a formidable proposition. Good attack, too.

[meeks]

I thought he raised very valid points - I've met lots of guys 'romanticized' by martial arts and want to accept some BS deification of their 'master' because it in essence validates them as well. Rather than simply 'shut up and train'. I had 1 instructor that was like that and eventually I just stopped training there...stupid things like "you must wait for me to taste the food before you can commence your meal" and then he'd sit there and purposely BS with guys at the restaurant for 10 minutes to make sure everyone knew the control he wielded over his students (while they sat there patiently waiting to eat and everyone else whittled away at the food on the table).

I heard of 1 guy that urinates on his students as a form of baptism. I'm sure I've heard dozens of eye witness accounts from guys I've met that have told similar accounts. I've personally witnessed many many people deify various 'masters' in Vancouver (aka HONGcouver because of all the Asians here - almost 40% of population is Asian here) so they're kina like Starbucks around here. And like I said, by deifying their teacher it elevates them into a greater overall scheme of things and they feel that much more special. It also helps explain why they all suck so bad - comparison is relative, right? It's not that I suck at martial arts, it's that Master X is soooooo amazing he makes me look like a fool....

[Andy_S]

SNIP
I heard of 1 guy that urinates on his students as a form of baptism.
SNIP

Hey! That's me. Who did you hear this from?

Seriously, I only do it to demonstrate to them the ability that my qigong grants: ie that of hosing down their attacker from 100 feet.

The ceremony for those who wish to become "indoor disciples" must remain secret, but I will reveal on thing: It involves the student lying under my donut while I squat there, grunting away, and then....

[Kevin_Wallbridge]

Well said Tom. I've seen pretty much everything you are talking about, and been subjected to much of it. It seems I never could grovel well enough

[Michael]

I had 1 instructor that was like that and eventually I just stopped training there...stupid things like "you must wait for me to taste the food before you can commence your meal" and then he'd sit there and purposely BS with guys at the restaurant for 10 minutes to make sure everyone knew the control he wielded over his students (while they sat there patiently waiting to eat and everyone else whittled away at the food on the table).

Experienced something similar during a one-time course and when I dug in first, all the little toadies squawked so loudly.