More Road Rage Murders

[Finny]

Well yeah - that's kinda the point I'm making Mike - when you say shit like that, you are CLEARLY wrong.

So, you personally know "some" people who have defended themselves with guns, with a positive outcome.

Well, I IMpersonally know that tens of thousands of americans died from gunshot wounds last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Those are stats that no-one argues with.

How is that propaganda?

Do you disagree that tens of thousands of people die each year in America from gunshot wounds?

If not, how do you seriously argue that guns make Americans safer?

[cerebus]

Well, the thing with this issue is that ONE statement does not apply to all situations. In Europe and other areas where gun control has been in effect for as long as there have been guns to control, then yes, it can work. In the US, well, I don't own a gun myself, and I don't wish to carry one, but in this country EVERY criminal who wishes to obtain a gun can easily do so. Non-criminals having access to guns may not be such a bad idea. I'm not saying that it'll lower the shooting statistics. But at least more of those who are shot might be criminals.

I would prefer not to have such a gun-ridden society, but in the US criminals who want to have guns WILL have them. It's an irrevocable fact. At this point, law abiding citizens may as well have access to guns as well...

[Steve James]

Well, law abiding citizens always have had "access" to "guns." When it comes to controlling guns generally used in the commission of crimes --as opposed to against other criminals, which means hand gun legislation. And, already, not all law-abiding citizens are allowed to carry guns on the street. The question of whether all citizens carrying handguns is kind of specific, and people can answer that any way that they choose. I personally would not feel safe in traffic if I knew that every driver was armed. So, my point here is that "I" won't feel safer if "you" (not personally) are carrying.

The distinction is between "control" and "infringement." Preventing someone from keeping a weapon in the home for protection can be deemed infringement, while requiring a hunting license or carrying permit or simple registration can be called control. To me, allowing someone untrained to hhave a weapon in his house is fine --as long as the only person he is likely to injure is himself, his family or someone who enters his house. However, no one dares argue that there should only be one gun per household.

It isn't necessary to ban guns completely in order to reduce the number of guns that are on the street for criminals to buy.

[MikeC]

Do you disagree that tens of thousands of people die each year in America from gunshot wounds?

If not, how do you seriously argue that guns make Americans safer?

Well I know three people personally who are safer today b/c of guns. You just read a headline somewhere and you think you're in the know. I don't think you have any personal experience in guns whatsoever other than what you can google.

Jus sayin

Mike

[Dmitri]

Oh, I get it, I just happened to live the past 25 years completely shielded from the violent crimes happening all around me.

I was amazed to find out that a few years ago Atlanta apparently was the #1 most dangerous city in the US, and that it has been down there, near the bottom of the list most of the time. In my 15 years here I've heard maybe 3 or 4 gunshots in the street.
Granted, I live in a very nice neighborhood, but still.

Finny, Ian -- the stats are a funny thing. The "gun-related deaths" include mobs, etc. It could simply mean that there are more mobs in the US than in some other countries, THAT'S ALL. (I'm not saying it does -- I'm just saying it could mean that, no?) But regardless...

When I lived in Russia, there weren't that many guns around but I've seen a few that some kids were playing with. (And they of course were "illegal" -- whatever that word means in that country...) The weapon of choice for muggings, etc. was knife. However, as far as "domestic violence" goes, guns have very little say anyway. There's always been more than enough of that in Russia and you would probably run out of numbers if you counted all the deaths caused by knives, clubs, frying pans, stools, etc.

The problem isn't in the guns themselves. The problem is in general public's ignorance toward the guns -- and the resulting fear of them, as everyone fears the unknown. Screwdrivers could be an extremely dangerous and certainly deadly weapon. Could be.

I used to hold your views, BTW, and not so long ago. But they changed, over the years. My argument was, "well, but guns are (with very, very few exceptions) made specifically for killing people -- screwdrivers are not!" I've realized over time that this sort of argument is extremely weak. It's people, it's always been peoplem it'll always be people that kill; if there is intent to kill, they will find a way, with or without a gun. Gun is just a tool. Like a screwdriver, only a little more specialized. Without an operator, it just doesn't operate, regardless what it was "made for". It's that simple.

Like I've said before, IMHO the biggest problem is in the "public opinion" about guns, driven by sheer lack of any sort of familiarity with or education about them.

[juz]

Here's a list of murder rates per 100000..
sure its not only guns deaths but no statistical skew towards screwdrivers either...

I wonder where countries with little or no gun controls are in the table?

I wonder where countries with severe gun controls are in the table?
El Salvador[20] 37.3 34.6 31.1 32.7 41.0 54.9 55.3 55.3
Jamaica[10] 34 44 40 36 54 64 49 49
Venezuela[12][27] 37 40 49 59 45 42 49 49
Guatemala[22] 25.8 25.2 30.7 35.0 36.3 42.0 45.2 45.2
Honduras[19] 49.92 53.72 55.89 33.57 31.89 35.06 42.91 42.91
South Africa[18][28] 49.6 47.8 47.4 42.7 40.3 39.6 40.5 38.6 40.5
Colombia[29][30][31][17][32] 62.7 64.6 65.8 51.8 44.6 39.3 37.3 37.3
Belize[33] 30.8 30.8
Trinidad and Tobago[24] [34] 10.0 12.58 14.33 20.69 20.07 29.69 28.53 30.38 30.38
Ecuador[36] 15.07 18.33 18.33
Russia[37] 19.80 18.0 16.5 16.5
Swaziland[15][36] 88.61 13.05 13.63 13.63
Mexico[15][38] 14.11 13.94 13.04 13.04
Mongolia[36] 13.51 12.81 12.81
Paraguay[15] 12.05 12.05
Haiti[39] 11.5 11.5
Suriname[36] 15.10 10.30 10.30
Panama[38] 10.56 9.56 9.56
Argentina[15][38] 7.17 8.43 9.47 9.47
Lithuania[15][38][36] 10.01 10.14 8.45 9.96 9.38 9.38
Papua New Guinea[15] 9.06 9.06
Latvia[15][38][36] 10.03 9.28 9.15 9.44 8.58 8.58
Thailand[15] 8.47 8.47
Zimbabwe[15][36] 7.24 7.99 8.44 8.44
Belarus[15][38][36] 10.13 9.72 9.96 8.91 8.31 8.31
Kyrgyzstan[15][36] 8.40 8.15 8.01 8.01
Zambia[15] 7.89 7.89
Barbados[15] 7.49 7.49
Ukraine[15][36] 8.93 8.51 7.42 7.42
Puerto Rico[40] 7.40 42.0 7.40
Seychelles[15] 7.39 7.39
Uganda[36] 7.95 7.37 7.37
Pakistan[41][15] 6.86
Estonia[15][36] 10.45 10.96 6.82 6.82
Moldova[15][38][36] 8.13 8.36 7.99 7.94 6.71 6.71
Sri Lanka[36] 6.42 6.69 6.69
Namibia[38] 6.33 6.35 6.35
Costa Rica[38][36] 6.64 6.44 6.99 6.23 6.23
Georgia[15][36] 4.76 6.62 6.22 6.22
United States[42][41] 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.7 5.7
Albania[38] 6.64 5.68 5.68
Uruguay[15][38][36] 4.61 6.31 6.46 5.30 5.64 5.64
Peru[38][36] 4.91 4.25 4.85 5.54 5.54
Philippines[15][38][36] 7.59 7.47 8.20 4.97 4.31 4.31
Côte d'Ivoire[15] 4.07 4.07
Palestine[36] 2.70 4.04 4.04
Yemen[15] 3.98 3.98
Turkey[36] 3.83 3.83 3.83
Nepal[38] 2.56 3.42 3.42
Spain[15][43] 1.25 3.65 3.35 3.35
Bulgaria[15][36] 4.07 3.15 3.08 3.08
Brazil[35] 26.7 27.8 28.4 28.9 27 27
Switzerland[15][38][36] 0.96 2.42 2.92 2.59 2.94 2.94
Iran[36] 2.64 2.93 2.93
Bolivia[38] 3.74 2.82 2.82
Finland[15][38][36] 2.86 3.01 2.54 1.97 2.75 2.75
Dominica[15] 2.74 2.74
Israel[36] 3.01 2.62 2.62
Scotland[38][36] 1.95 2.20 1.84 2.56 2.56
Mauritius[15][36] 2.19 2.95 2.51 2.51
Armenia[15][36] 3.34 2.50 2.48 2.48
Northern Ireland[38] 2.90 2.48 2.48
Azerbaijan[15][38][36] 2.81 2.69 2.59 2.20 2.41 2.41
Sweden[38][36] 1.88 2.45 2.13 2.39 2.39
Romania[15][38][36] 2.50 2.66 2.52 2.52 2.37 2.37
Malaysia[15] 2.36 2.36
Republic of Macedonia[15] 2.31 2.31
Slovakia[15][38][36] 2.65 2.40 2.57 2.70 2.26 2.26
Czech Republic[15][38][36] 1.69 2.29 2.29 2.27 2.22 2.22
South Korea[15][36] 2.02 2.19 2.18 2.18
Hungary[15][38][36] 2.05 2.49 2.00 2.33 2.09 2.09
United Kingdom[38] 1.76 2.03 2.03
Canada[15][38][36][citation needed] 1.59 1.67 1.67 1.74 1.95 2.01 1.85 1.85
Croatia[38][36] 1.86 1.79 1.53 1.83 1.83
Portugal[15][36] 2.47 2.61 1.79 1.79
Malta[38] 1.52 1.51 1.75 1.75
Chile[15][36] 1.55 1.75 1.71 1.71
Cyprus[38][36] 0.92 0.26 1.71 1.70 1.70
France[15][36] 1.78 1.64 1.64 1.64
Poland[15][38][36] 5.61 2.01 1.87 1.72 1.64 1.64
England, Wales[15][38][36] 1.61 1.52 1.62 1.62 1.62
Bermuda[36] 3.14 1.56 1.56
Belgium[38] 1.80 1.50 1.50
Slovenia[15][38][36] 1.81 1.42 1.83 1.07 1.47 1.47
Algeria[36] 2.04 1.39 1.39
Brunei[36] 0.56 1.37 1.37
New Zealand[15][38] 1.17 1.16 1.29 1.29
Australia[15][36] 1.57 1.53 1.28 1.28
Maldives[38][36] 2.50 2.79 1.28 1.28
Italy[15][38][36] 1.29 1.23 1.12 1.24 1.23 1.23
Tunisia[15][38] 1.18 1.26 1.22 1.22
Syria[36] 1.04 1.14 1.14
Japan[41][15] 1.10
0.50 1.10
0.50
Indonesia[15] 1.05 1.05
Iceland[15][38] 1.78 0.35 1.41 1.03 1.03
Kuwait[38] 1.71 0.99 0.99
Bahrain[36] 0.43 0.98 0.98
Germany[15][38][36] 1.17 1.05 1.11 0.99 0.98 0.98
Netherlands[26] 1.42 1.23 0.97 0.97
Saudi Arabia[15][38] 0.51 0.87 0.92 0.92
Ireland[36] 1.12 0.91 0.91
Luxembourg[38] 1.36 0.90 0.90
Austria[38] 0.87 0.81 0.81
Denmark[15][38][36] 1.09 0.97 1.04 1.20 0.79 0.79
Norway[15][36] 1.09 1.11 0.78 0.78
Qatar[15][36] 0.17 0.55 0.77 0.77
Greece[15] 0.76 0.76
Hong Kong[15][36] 0.56 0.73 0.63 0.63
United Arab Emirates[36] 1.12 0.63 0.63
Oman[38] 0.52 0.59 0.59
Japan[15][41] 0.50
1.10 0.50
1.10
Singapore[15][36] 0.92 0.57 0.49 0.49
Morocco[38][36] 0.44 0.48 0.50 0.47 0.47

no need to quote Chris Rock again?

[juz]

Like I've said before, IMHO the biggest problem is in the "public opinion" about guns, driven by sheer lack of any sort of familiarity with or education about them.

I'm all for education, but I am simply amazed by peoples insistence that lots of guns absolutely does not lead to lots of shootings...

To equate freedom with owning an instrument that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO KILL/MAIM other human beings
(sports pistols /hunting rifles are a different kettle of fish) with little to no training required, just point and click...I guess thats why this thread has so much argument and little discussion; frankly many posters (me included)just cannot fathom this mentality...
Goodluck u.s.of.a

[Dmitri]

Here's a more specific research:
http://www.unicri.it/wwk/publications/b ... ERSHIP.pdf

There is very little correlation, almost none at all. Well below the "see, it matters a lot!" mark.

To equate freedom with owning an instrument

Nobody does that. (Well I don't anyway. )

[juz]

Here's a more specific research:
http://www.unicri.it/wwk/publications/b ... ERSHIP.pdf

There is very little correlation, almost none at all. Well below the "see, it matters a lot!" mark.

To equate freedom with owning an instrument

Nobody does that. (Well I don't anyway. )

sure Canada amongst others ( happy C-day guys) has a high% gun ownership and low murder rate.
But for America the High Gun Ownership (and not guns for popping an elk) IS a HUGE part of the problem...

To equate freedom with owning an instrument

Nobody does that. (Well I don't anyway. )[/quote]

"from my cold dead hands...."

[juz]

I'm sure America does feel safer compared to some parts of Russia

[Finny]

Dmitri - you make a reasonable point, but at the end of the day, the logic is flawed.

Sure, a screwdriver can be a lethal weapon when the person weilding it has the intent.

But it takes a HELL of a lot more commitment, a hell of a lot more skill, and a hell of a lot more determination to kill someone with a screwdriver than it does to pop someone in the head with a handgun.

I'm certainly not saying I've got the answer (or even any answer at all) - but you really can't deny that the easy accessibility of firearms in the US results in loads of firearm related deaths, where other societies simply don't have to worry about this particular issue.

Sure, violent crime is always going to be an issue, anywhere in the world, as long as mankind is capable of violence.

I'm just sayin, you have the guns, sooner or later folks get shot - and not always the bad guys.

Of course Mike loves to rant about how it's our own responsibility to protect ourselves, I think he said at one point in this thread "it's not the police's job to protect the public, they're there to enforce the law"

Whatever happened to the "to PROTECT and serve" written on the side of all the cop cars in hollywood movies I see - they don't follow that motto anymore?

I'm all for personal responsibility, but Mike's attitude that "the cops in countries with gun controls are there to enslave the sheep" seems to me to be completely ridiculous. I prefer to think that they're there to keep me safe from violence.

The day that changes, who knows, maybe I'll move to the states and buy a few guns.

[Ian]

Finny, Ian -- the stats are a funny thing. The "gun-related deaths" include mobs, etc. It could simply mean that there are more mobs in the US than in some other countries, THAT'S ALL. (I'm not saying it does -- I'm just saying it could mean that, no?) But regardless...

I'm looking at the stats juz posted.

What countries does the USA outstrip in terms of murder rate per 100,000 people?

Philippines, Palestine, Yemen, Brazil, Iran, Israel, Poland, Italy, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Morocco.

That's hilarious.

I used to hold your views, BTW, and not so long ago.

Why, Dmitri - what are my views?

Maybe if I knew what you think my views are, I could respond

It's people, it's always been peoplem it'll always be people that kill...It's that simple.

Your children can't take a screwdriver to school and kill a bunch of their classmates. They can't use a screwdriver to accidentally kill themselves, either. It's harder for people to hold up a convenience store or rob a bank with screwdrivers.

And on the flipside, counter-terrorist units can't clear rooms with screwdrivers.

[Dmitri]

I'm just sayin, you have the guns, sooner or later folks get shot - and not always the bad guys.

Exactly why I said the biggest problem is lack of education. I don't think it's possible to eliminate guns altogether -- they're not going away any time soon. And as long as they're around, the "bad guys" will have them. All I'm saying is that the govt. shouldn't prevent the "good guys" from getting them too, if they so desire.

I think he said at one point in this thread "it's not the police's job to protect the public, they're there to enforce the law"

Whatever happened to the "to PROTECT and serve" written on the side of all the cop cars in hollywood movies I see - they don't follow that motto anymore?

Actually that was me...

Well, Hollywood movies are just that. I'm not talking about entertainment or (largely completely uneducated in this regard) public opinion or "common knowledge" -- I'm talking about the US Constitution.

I prefer to think that they're there to keep me safe from violence.

I know, -- that's what most people prefer to think. But what you need to realize (or at least give it some thought), is that protection from violence is not the goal of police work, it is simply one of the side effects of upholding the law, since the law is generally slanted towards public safety. This is a huge difference, difference in "morality" if you will, in the personal mental attitude -- "please keep me safe" vs. "please leave me alone and do your job (which happens to be upholding the law, a big side effect of which happens to be keeping me safe.) One is infantile, the other presumes personal freedom. You can't have both, they are complete opposites.

[Dmitri]

Why, Dmitri - what are my views?

Maybe if I knew what you think my views are, I could respond

Just basing the estimate on all your sarcastic replies, -- if I was wrong let me know.

Your children can't take a screwdriver to school and kill a bunch of their classmates. They can't use a screwdrive to accidentally kill themselves, either. It's harder for people to hold up a convenience store or rob a bank with screwdrivers.

True, it's a lot easier. This goes back to the lack of education, etc. No kid of a responsible gun owner and a good parent would EVER go and shoot anyone. EVER, I guarantee you that. These kids' parents were either bad parents, or irresponsible re. guns, or both. (Of course freak accidents will always happen -- I'm talking about overwhelming majority.)

Let alone that they also can (and do so, much more frequently) get run over by a car, etc.

[Steve James]

You're wrong about police officers. They are intended to be the "thin blue line" between the innocent and the guilty.
You're talking about court officers, including prosecutors, defense attorneys, aljs and judges: i.e., administrators.
Police officers specifically say "Tell it to the judge" because that's who determines the law.

Finally, police officers and soldiers are duty bound --by oath-- to protect the public and the Constitution. First of all, the Constitution is a document of "We the People", not me Steve. If all these people who are yearning to carry are really worried about the public, the community, the nation, then they have a noble cause. It's like the fireman who runs into the burning building when he hears a scream. The interpretations I hear, here, are generally selfish and self-centered.

I agree that there should be more education. But, the screwdriver v. gun argument isn't based on a good analogy. Ok, pistols are no more dangerous than water: both can kill you. Tell that to the mother who has lost her child to random gunfire.