Go on then kill me!

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Go on then kill me!

Postby GrahamB on Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:13 am

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 067989.ece

Sceptic challenges guru to kill him live on TV

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When a famous tantric guru boasted on television that he could kill another man using only his mystical powers, most viewers either gasped in awe or merely nodded unquestioningly. Sanal Edamaruku’s response was different. “Go on then — kill me,” he said.

Mr Edamaruku had been invited to the same talk show as head of the Indian Rationalists’ Association — the country’s self-appointed sceptic-in-chief. At first the holy man, Pandit Surender Sharma, was reluctant, but eventually he agreed to perform a series of rituals designed to kill Mr Edamaruku live on television. Millions tuned in as the channel cancelled scheduled programming to continue broadcasting the showdown, which can still be viewed on YouTube.

First, the master chanted mantras, then he sprinkled water on his intended victim. He brandished a knife, ruffled the sceptic’s hair and pressed his temples. But after several hours of similar antics, Mr Edamaruku was still very much alive — smiling for the cameras and taunting the furious holy man.

“He was over, finished, completely destroyed!” Mr Edamaruku chuckles triumphantly as he concludes the tale in the Rationalist Centre, his second-floor office in the town of Noida, just outside Delhi.

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Rationalising India has never been easy. Given the country’s vast population, its pervasive poverty and its dizzying array of ethnic groups, languages and religions, many deem it impossible.

Nevertheless, Mr Edamaruku has dedicated his life to exposing the charlatans — from levitating village fakirs to televangelist yoga masters — who he says are obstructing an Indian Enlightenment. He has had a busy month, with one guru arrested over prostitution, another caught in a sex-tape scandal, a third kidnapping a female follower and a fourth allegedly causing a stampede that killed 63 people.

This week India’s most popular yoga master, Baba Ramdev, announced plans to launch a political party, promising to cleanse India of corruption and introduce the death penalty for slaughtering cows. Then, on Wednesday, police arrested a couple in Maharashtra state on suspicion of killing five boys on the advice of a tantric master who said their sacrifice would help the childless couple to conceive.

“The immediate goal I have is to stop these fraudulent babas and gurus,” says Mr Edamaruku, 55, a part-time journalist and publisher from the southern state of Kerala. “I want people to make their own decisions. They should not be guided by ignorance, but by knowledge.

“I’d like to see a post-religious society — that would be an ideal dream, but I don’t know how long it would take.”

His organisation traces its origins to the 1930s when the “Thinker’s Library” series of books, published by Britain’s Rationalist Press Association, were first imported to India. They included works by Aldous Huxley, Charles Darwin and H.G. Wells; among the early subscribers was Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first Prime Minister.

The Indian Rationalist Association was founded officially in Madras in 1949 with the encouragement of the British philosopher Bertrand Russell, who sent a long letter of congratulations. For the next three decades it had no more than 300 members and focused on publishing pamphlets and debating within the country’s intellectual elite.

But since Mr Edamaruku took over in 1985, it has grown into a grass-roots organisation of more than 100,000 members — mainly young professionals, teachers and students — covering most of India. Members now spend much of their time investigating and reverse-engineering “miracles” performed by self-styled holy men who often claim millions of followers and amass huge wealth from donations.

One common trick they expose is levitation, usually done using an accomplice who lies on the ground under a blanket and then raises his upper body while holding out two hockey sticks under the blanket to make it look like his feet are also rising. “It’s quite easy really,” said Mr Edamaruku, who teaches members to perform the tricks in villages and then explains how they are done, or demonstrates them at press conferences.

Other simple tricks include walking on hot coals (the skin does not burn if you walk fast enough) and lying on a bed of nails (your weight is spread evenly across the bed). The “weeping statue” trick is usually done by melting a thin layer of wax covering a small deposit of water.

Some tricks require closer scrutiny. One guru in the state of Andhra Pradesh used to boil a pot of tea using a small fire on his head. The secret was to place a non-conductive pad made of compacted wheat flour between his head and the fire. “I was so excited when I exposed him. I should have been more reasonable but sometimes you get so angry,” he said. “I cried: ‘Look, even I can do this and I’m not a baba — I’m a rationalist!’.”

Another swami — who conducted funeral rites for Indira Gandhi, the Prime Minister who was assassinated in 1984 — used to appear to create fire by pouring ghee, clarified butter, on to ash and then staring at the mixture until it burst into flames. The “ghee” was glycerine and the “ash” was potassium permanganate, two chemicals that spontaneously combust within about two minutes of being mixed together.

Exposing such tricks can be risky. A guru called Balti (Bucket) Baba once smashed a burning hot clay pot in Mr Edamaruku’s face after he revealed that the holy man was using a heat resistant pad to pick it up.

The chief rationalist was almost arrested by the government of Kerala for revealing that it was behind an annual apparition of flames in the night sky — in fact, several state officials lighting bonfires on a nearby hill — which attracted millions of pilgrims. Despite his efforts, he admits that people still go to the festival and continue to revere self-styled holy men.

One reason is that Indian politicians nurture and shelter gurus to give them spiritual credibility, use their followers as vote banks, or to mask sexual or criminal activity. That explains why India’s Parliament has never tightened the 1954 Drugs and Magic Remedies Act, under which the maximum punishment is two months in prison and a 2,000 rupee (£29) fine.

Another reason is that educated, middle-class Indians are feeling increasingly alienated from mainstream religion but still in need of spiritual sustenance. “When traditional religion collapses people still need spirituality,” he says. “So they usually go one of two directions: towards extremism and fundamentalism or to these kinds of people.”

Since richer, urban Indians have little time for long pilgrimages or pujas (prayer ceremonies), they are often attracted by holy men who offer instant gratification — for a fee. The development of the Indian media over the past decade has also allowed some holy men to reach ever larger audiences via television and the internet. “Small ones have gone out of business while the big ones have become like corporations,” says Mr Edamaruku.

But the media revolution has also helped Mr Edamaruku, who made 225 appearances on television last year, and gets up to 70 inquiries about membership daily. Thanks to his confrontation in 2008 with the tantric master, the rationalist is now a national celebrity, too.

When the guru’s initial efforts failed, he accused Mr Edamaruku of praying to gods to protect him. “No, I’m an atheist,” came the response. The holy man then said he needed to conduct a ritual that could only be done at night, outdoors, and after he had slept with a woman, drunk alcohol and rubbed himself in ash.

The men agreed to go to an outdoor studio that night — all to no avail. At midnight, the anchor declared the contest over. Reason had prevailed.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby KEND on Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:18 am

Hi Graham , you beat me to it I was reading the Times on line and came across it. I felt the descriptions of faking 'setting objects alight using the mind' were eerily reminiscent of martial arts 'masters' doing the same thing[I thought they used phosphorus]. The posts almost invariably ended up in BTDT
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Dmitri on Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:34 am

That's a damn shame, to test and mock a holy man like that.

What's next, are they now going to contest that this was not real, too?!



People should always keep their faith strong, despite evidence to the contrary vile heathens' mockery.
Last edited by Dmitri on Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby yusuf on Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:24 am

good find Graham.. there are so many fakes that the real mystics in India are rarer than a virgin in Newcastle...
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Felipe Bidó on Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:37 pm

That's how legends are created:

Believer A: "It's impossible to think that Guru would kill that guy on TV!. Guru is not a criminal!. He's a being of light!" ..and he keeps being a believer

(a few days, months, or even years later, TV guy dies for any reason).

Believer A: Isn't that the guy that challenged our Guru on TV? The curse worked!

(If the guy that died wasn't Mr. Edamaruku)

Believer A: Isn't that the guy that challenged our guru?
Believer B: Hmmm...I'm not sure...
Believer C: Hmmm...I think it's him...

A bit of time later, in another town:

Believer C: There was a guy that challenged our guru on TV, and I think he died by the "I KILL YOU!" curse.
Believer D: Wow...

Believer D: (To others): A guy challenged our guru on TV. And he died. (Notice how the details of the identity of the TV guy are forgotten, and the time passed between the challenge and the death has shrunk to the level of direct causation).

The rumor spreads, and generations later there's the story of that guy that was foolish enough to challenge a Guru and died right after the I KILL YOU!! curse was put on him.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Muad'dib on Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:36 pm

chen fake practiced 1000 times a day!
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby cdobe on Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:38 pm

Felipe Bidó wrote:That's how legends are created:

Believer A: "It's impossible to think that Guru would kill that guy on TV!. Guru is not a criminal!. He's a being of light!" ..and he keeps being a believer

There are also the believers of the same category, who just follow another Guru.

Believer E: "Killing by mystical powers IS real. There is tons of evidence for it out there. This guy however is a fake. I knew that all along. You can clearly see it from the way...blah ....blah... blah..."

When the guy dies, believer E becomes indistinguishable from Guru's followers... ;) see below
Felipe Bidó wrote:(a few days, months, or even years later, TV guy dies for any reason).

Believer A: Isn't that the guy that challenged our Guru on TV? The curse worked!

(If the guy that died wasn't Mr. Edamaruku)

Believer A: Isn't that the guy that challenged our guru?
Believer B: Hmmm...I'm not sure...
Believer C: Hmmm...I think it's him...

A bit of time later, in another town:

Believer C: There was a guy that challenged our guru on TV, and I think he died by the "I KILL YOU!" curse.
Believer D: Wow...

Believer D: (To others): A guy challenged our guru on TV. And he died. (Notice how the details of the identity of the TV guy are forgotten, and the time passed between the challenge and the death has shrunk to the level of direct causation).

The rumor spreads, and generations later there's the story of that guy that was foolish enough to challenge a Guru and died right after the I KILL YOU!! curse was put on him.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Dmitri on Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:53 pm

Zhong_Kui wrote:chen fake practiced 1000 times a day!

Well since chen's practice was fake, it doesn't count.
(Ha, ha, ha.)
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Andy_S on Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:26 am

The Rationalists are to be congratulated for overturning a lot of mumbo-jumbo in India.

There was an excellent TV docco on them about, which I watched in Malaysia in either '94 or '95...needless to say, it caused a bit of soul searching among some of my silat mates. One of them had recently been blessed in a "flower ceremony" by a local guru who had "miraculously" produced a gold ring from thin air...the show not only showed the Rationalists doing sleight of hand to reproduce the same feat my mate had just been taken in by, they also slo-mo camera-ed a similar feat in India which caught the guy in the act.

A lot of the old Shaolin tricks (eg how to lick a red-hot plate) are explained in the "Sorcerers' Apprentice" about an Anglo-Indian chap who apprenticed to one of India's most revered mystics. Recommended reading.

Good luck to The Rationalists, say I. The only negative is that a lot of them practice TKD. (They like to demonstrate breaking to their audiences.)

I would add that given the attitude some members of RSF hold toward "demons" and "exorcisms," the Rationalists might win some new converts by paying a visit to this site...
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:16 am

You would think these guys would be smart enough to sharpen their nails, put paralysis poison onto the tip and knock the dude out after telling him, I'm not going to kill you, but I am going to teach you to shut the fuck up. then scratch, in goes the curare, the person drops and the fake guru is still leader of thousands!

I actually don't mind fake gurus as long as their message is peace. By having thousands of people practicing peace, even if the guru gets blowjobs and money all day is ok.

To deceive someone into living a peaceful life is an example of how a right can stem from a wrong.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby meeks on Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:53 am

That's how legends are created:
Believer A: "It's impossible to think that Guru would kill that guy on TV!. Guru is not a criminal!. He's a being of light!" ..and he keeps being a believer
(a few days, months, or even years later, TV guy dies for any reason).
Believer A: Isn't that the guy that challenged our Guru on TV? The curse worked!
(If the guy that died wasn't Mr. Edamaruku)
Believer A: Isn't that the guy that challenged our guru?
Believer B: Hmmm...I'm not sure...
Believer C: Hmmm...I think it's him...
A bit of time later, in another town:
Believer C: There was a guy that challenged our guru on TV, and I think he died by the "I KILL YOU!" curse.
Believer D: Wow...
Believer D: (To others): A guy challenged our guru on TV. And he died. (Notice how the details of the identity of the TV guy are forgotten, and the time passed between the challenge and the death has shrunk to the level of direct causation).
The rumor spreads, and generations later there's the story of that guy that was foolish enough to challenge a Guru and died right after the I KILL YOU!! curse was put on him.


oh, so he really DID kill the guy..? wow.....!
Last edited by meeks on Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:03 am

Darth Rock&Roll wrote:I actually don't mind fake gurus as long as their message is peace. By having thousands of people practicing peace, even if the guru gets blowjobs and money all day is ok.

To deceive someone into living a peaceful life is an example of how a right can stem from a wrong.

Has it ever happened this way? Oh, wait, you could come back and tell me that it's essentially such and such a religion that works this way. Okay, answered my own question, but I need a savior who's never had a bj from an acolyte.
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby wiesiek on Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:31 am

as Himler claimed - lie repeted 100times became truth :-\
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:36 am

Michael wrote:
Darth Rock&Roll wrote:I actually don't mind fake gurus as long as their message is peace. By having thousands of people practicing peace, even if the guru gets blowjobs and money all day is ok.

To deceive someone into living a peaceful life is an example of how a right can stem from a wrong.

Has it ever happened this way? Oh, wait, you could come back and tell me that it's essentially such and such a religion that works this way. Okay, answered my own question, but I need a savior who's never had a bj from an acolyte.



why can't saviours get blowjobs?

I've saved myself, I like blowjobs.

Why are you so against oral sex for saviours Michael? ;D

Also, why are you looking for a saviour? Don't you know the difference between right and wrong? can't you act responsibily and do the right thing and live a good life so that you don't actually need a saviour?
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Re: Go on then kill me!

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:45 am

I'm generally against the idea of a saviour as far as my personal preference, but certainly others can have what they like and it seems to work well for lots of people, but I was kind of emulating what I think one of them would say and being facetious when doing so.
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