Fucking Hell!

[klonk]

I here declare my intent to file for the rights to "Pissen Beer."




Truth in advertising.

[Steve James]

Well, to me, vile means despicable or evil, and I just think that vulgar is more precise. I said that it may be vile in some societies (and to the people in them). I was just giving a reason why I disagree with the usage. I don't think it's profane either, but I'm not trying to argue with people who do. Most of all, I don't think that what the word describes is "bad" or "low" or profane --and, even if so, using coitus, intercourse or some metaphor wouldn't change it. More vulgarly, if shooting is good, fucking is better.

[klonk]

Though everyone agrees the act described is pleasurable, public displays of the same are rightly censured in all lands, and open references to the act are, I will grant you, vulgar at the least.

I derive vulgar from vulgus, which probably doesn't mean what it sounds like.

[Steve James]

public displays of the same are rightly censured in all lands

Right. Public displays of what the words fuck, coitus, intercourse describe: i.e., "sex" is considered a private affair in most cultures (where privacy is an option). But, I agree that "in public" means on the street, etc., not "with people around." The latter can be fun ... except when you're just listening.

As for vulgar, it will have the same root as "folk" (in one of the Indo-European sound shifts). The Catholic "Vulgate" Bible is literally the "peoples'" book or the book for the people --which actually meant for "Romans" who did not speak Classical Latin. Anyway, from the online etymological dictionary:

vulgar
1391, "common, ordinary," from L. vulgaris "of or pertaining to the common people, common, vulgar," from vulgus "the common people, multitude, crowd, throng," from PIE base *wel- "to crowd, throng" (cf. Skt. vargah "division, group," Gk. eilein "to press, throng," M.Bret. gwal'ch "abundance," Welsh gwala "sufficiency, enough"). Meaning "coarse, low, ill-bred" is first recorded 1643, probably from earlier use (with reference to people) with meaning "belonging to the ordinary class" (1530). Vulgarian "rich person of vulgar manners" is recorded from 1804.

[klonk]

My word, are you suggesting folks can be vulgar? Remind me again what we are arguing about.

[Steve James]

Actually, we're arguing whether being ordinary, common vulgar folks is the same as being vile. I say no.

[klonk]

I am ordinary, common as they come, of the vulgari, if you will, and will not be ordering this beer. To debase language is to desecrate the soul of man, which hardly needs it.

The ancient Greeks had a word, arete, which is best rendered today by 'superiority' or 'excellence'. It was applied to language, philosophy, poetry, politics and, yes, even lovemaking. Its connotation was there is a right way and a wrong way. When respect for this concept declined, so did Greece.

Vile is as vile does. The Greeks aren't here any more, except to beg bailout money from the EU. Their excellence vanished along with their arete, which could also mean decorum.

[Steve James]

Vile is as vile does.

Absolutely, in my world, murder and rape are vile. Cursing and fucking in public are merely vulgar.

[klonk]

Here you go. Great deal on 'The Oxford Classical Dictionary' (Hardcover - May 1, 2003) http://bit.ly/aIBKHs You say rape and murder as if they are new ideas. I got news for you, bub.

[Ian]

wait, so you're saying you don't like the name?

[klonk]

wait, so you're saying you don't like the name?

I am appalled at the degradation of language and meaning. As in the old joke: How may legs would a collie have it you called a tail a leg?

Four.

[Ian]

I was just messing with you man...

[klonk]

Och aye. I derive the Americanism "Okay" from that ancient root.

[meeks]

oh man.... a redundant argument about semantics....

[Darth Rock&Roll]

English is an ever changing river of language unlike pretty much any other.

Even 50 years ago it was not quite the same as it is now.
Go back 100 years and it is a little more different still.

Go back 500 and you cannot understand it without having a background in study of the language.

Go back 1000 years and English is completely and utterly unrecognizable by it's native speakers now.

What was once crude and vulgar is now accepted and common speech, including epithets, slurs et al.

It's a lovely language!