"Breaking the Great Australian Silence"

[meeks]

Why tell me? You're disagreeing with another White guy, right? But, hey, "Let it go."

Steve, I think there's a few of us here that would appreciate you knocking the 'White guy' remarks down a few notches.

And just because someone is white (admittedly you don't believe in colors) doesn't make them all guilty of 'whip cracking by proxy' through heritage. Not every white person on the board had family fighting to keep the right to own slaves, just like not every black person in the US has a victim of slavery up their heritage. Perhaps I'm just reading your posts to Darth incorrectly, but I'm getting the sense you're pushing your remarks in that direction based on the article in question.

[affa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_geNe_transfer

[affa]

caveat:

any inadvertently misinterpreted connotations of socio-racial darwinism are trumped by the IDENTICAL ANCESTORS POINT... nowadays... but if we don't do something soon... species always diverge, and Morlocks suck!



by the way, my great-great-great grandfather was the largest slave holder (of his day) in coffee county tennessee. i'm not ashamed... or proud...



... but i weep for the world he sowed, and rejoice in the fields that his rot fertilized.

[Dmitri]

affa, what was it you said you did for a living?

[chimerical tortoise]

Darth,

I don't want to argue here too much longer given the white/black stuff that gets drawn... seems like alot has passed since I last checked. I have no intention of pointing fingers based on race, you're right, everyone has fucked someone else over at some point.

No, Canada didn't need to shoot the place up. They simply continue to take advantage of destabilised regimes to extract resources. There are many Canadian mining engineers involved, even if the gruntwork is local. Ironically, about two years ago, it was a geo-engineer buddy of mine at UBC who was actually trying to tell me how exploitative Canadian mining worldwide is with little or no return given to local people. I refused to believe him at the time. Canada is no military superpower like the States, but it still has a few skeletons still chilling in the closet.

Somalia was referenced somewhere up there. The loss of livelihoods from fishing is a huge reason given for piracy. Industrialised fleets have taken advantage of Somalia's lack of government and thus enforcement of territorial waters for quite awhile now. Nigeria has some serious militant activity because of oil extraction on local land with no returns for locals. I haven't heard of protesting tanker pollution, but methinks in either case that Somalia should have some agency over thier maritime territories.

If you want to know what kind of world we live in and where I get this weird reality from, I'd be glad to help. If anything, you should read this article by Lakoff, here's part one, http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Texts/Scholarly/Lakoff_Gulf_Metaphor_1.html, that discusses the framing of US military intervention and how it's sold.

As for the points that you think are 'discarding reality', here's a selection which I drew from. Most of these books are very good reads, if you're ever interested, but could be a little dry (although Moyo does for a wide audience as an economist):

Dambisa Moyo on developmental aid (highly recommend this one, btw... may be the one you'd enjoy the most, the rest can get dry)
http://www.dambisamoyo.com/deadaid.html

James Ferguson on exploitation patterns in Africa, among other things (there's a brief description of Canada's role in mining, iirc)
http://books.google.com/books?id=qJUUA_MwMA4C&dq=global+shadows+ferguson&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=uU3HS4ezIoHqM7-CgdQI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Anna Tsing on Indonesia
http://books.google.com/books?id=0w32dvoW0aEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=anna+tsing&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Scandal and empire in India
http://books.google.com/books?id=LqLF0yVLg2UC&dq=scandal+and+empire&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=WlDHS8vyC4PWNpqelY0J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bear in mind that Moyo was a successful economist on Wall Street for awhile, and Tsing and Ferguson both put serious time into conducting ethnographic research (read: go to a place, live there for a long time, before writing observations).

I'm not even talking about being PC here. Far as I'm concerned what I'm saying is not PC. PC hides this sort of bullshit underneath the carpet. PC is the same shit that labels everything organic and fair trade over here when it's actually made in China, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

The idea of democracy is PC. The idea that it 'works' like it's meant to is laughable, I think one of your later posts even goes so far as to describe the difference between its Greek form and now and the pains it has taken thus far. I can't find an online copy for Max Gluckman's "License in Ritual" but he has a pretty nifty take on what democracy is - I don't want to misquote him but basically he argues that democracy is more an exercise in social cohesion than actual voter agency.

What I'm arguing is that in North America we are systematically decieved to believe that what we do is right, that our governments abroad fight for just causes, that we are helping move humanity forward, that colonialism is done. Not true. Absolutely not true. The US today has a lower literacy rate than say, China, iirc. And more Chinese are aware of their national censorship than Americans would like to believe.

A good first step would be to actually read up on these issues. You're right, here in the developed West the information is out there. But still, most people cover their ears when stealing bells, and revert to the same old moral lines of bringing the light of civilisation to dem savage natives. And no, the US/Europe is not the only one to have done this through history, but never to the extent that exists now.

What do you propose as a solution as opposed to pointing out what you think is a problem?

If I came to visit you I'd bring you a gift, that's what I would do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Mauss




EDIT: sorry, am in the middle of a rough school schedule so if the above doesn't completely make sense, i'll make amends later or something. peace

[Steve James]

Steve, I think there's a few of us here that would appreciate you knocking the 'White guy' remarks down a few notches.

Hey, I didn't bring up "White" at all. I was just addressing the fact that "Whiteness" and "civilization/colonization" were being conflated: i.e. being pointed to as the same thing. All the stuff raised about "white guilt" wasn't introduced by me. Check back. Now, as for appreciation for pointing out things in terms of color/race, I understand that people can get sensitive. Race and color are ok, as long as it isn't about "my" race. Or, people don't think race is important or an issue until it refers to them.

Besides, I didn't suggest or mention the "White guy" who wrote the article in any derogative sense. It was closer to praise than blame. I just said "White guy" and stuff gets twisted. I talk about "Black guys", no --though usually to dismiss the idea, generally. You know that. When I want to get nasty, I get specific. But, in general, I'm not the sensitive one here. And, this issue is a refreshing change, especially for those or us who get talked about regularly. As I said, if an Aboriginal had written the article, it'd be playing the "race card" and he'd be told to "get over it." As it turns out, a White Australian wrote it, talking about other Australians. I'm telling those who complain about what he said to "get over it" and "let it go." I'm willing to ... though, i have to admit that it took a bit of time; but, I'm better for it.

[qiphlow]

all governments could use a little more honesty in their dealings.

[affa]

affa, what was it you said you did for a living?

anthropological (psycho)linguist, by training... moonlighting as a farm hand and an elementary/middle-school substitute, while finishing my dissertation. most blessedly... dowry recipient

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Tortoise.

I believe I understand your intention and distress.
I don't fully agree with your position though.

Business is where you court a client, get a contract signed and then proceed to piss all over each other while trying not to get any on the contract.

that is simply how it is.
ealry bird gets the worm, dog eat dog.

I think the idea of non-reciprocal gift giving is mighty in it's intention, but Utopic in reality.
It may happen now and again, but it doesn't seem to be a solution.
There's a fifty/fifty chance it will be seen as mere weakness.

That is human nature by my reckoning.

Canadian Mining organizations are for profit like anyone else.
Technically, we are some of the best in the world at it and with our contributions, many others are benefiting.

taking advantage of a political situation to profit is certainly nothing new.
But the main point is are Canadians killing anyone? Are Canadians stealing anything?
Or are they being industrious and entrepreneurial.

I have no doubt that there are some shady riggings and doings. And probably even some very distasteful and lopsided arrangement.

But that is the nature of business. If you leave money on the table, the one who grabs it first gets it.
We certainly aren't going to tell people how to run their country.
And we aren't going to say no to what amounts to a good deal!

why should we?

[chimerical tortoise]

Darth,
There's no such thing as a non-reciprocal-intentioned gift, that's what Mauss claims. And yes, business can be nasty and well, shit happens.

I'm not very distressed about it, time changes people and rarely the other way around. It'd just be nice for me not to fuck things up much more than they are already, I think. I doubt we fully disagree at the end of the day.

Affa,
I think I understand Darth, not sure if I understood you, hahaha.
Made me laugh in the library though, thanks