External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:07 am

cloudz wrote:
What information do you actually have about this, if there is research available I'd love to read it. I get the feeling that this is just speculation and story telling. I mean that's fine if you like, but it can't be thought of as a sure thing. I have heard of one guy that competed in one of the big tournaments organized in the early twentieth century and that's it.


I'm sorry I don't quite understand the questions as I've provided links and thought it was common knowledge
reflected in either historical accounts or family accounts of the past.

After the first martial arts competition in Nanjing [October, 1928], it was noticed that those who specialized in Taiji Boxing often did not win. But among challengers from Beiping who did win, although seventy-five percent had trained in Taiji, those participants had not stated that Taiji Boxing was their specialty. (During the Martial Arts Institute’s tournament, participant’s had to declare what martial arts they had trained in and what their specialty was.) Consequently, ordinary people tend to be skeptical about Taiji Boxing, and in fact are so critical of Taiji boxers that, sure enough, they are on the verge of mockery.


When Taiji Boxing is not trained to the point of applicability, it is risky to go compete with someone. Not only would you not be able to attack the opponent, sometimes you would not even know how to protect yourself, rendering it all useless. Or if you stay in the same type of posture and receive all of his attacks, you would be like the mediocre boxers described in old novels, who have only the skill of parrying, no word of them achieving any counterattack.
As for practitioners of Taiji Boxing who have never practiced it properly, they do not even have skill in parrying attacks.

This is because within Taiji Boxing there actually are no techniques specifically for parrying. But without techniques of parrying, how would an opponent’s attacks not be getting through? To explore this question, we first need to gain a clear understanding of Taiji Boxing theory.


Yang Chengfu and Wu Jianquan are equally renowned in Beiping as Taiji Boxing experts. It has been said: “Yang Chengfu is good at shooting people away but not good at neutralizing, whereas Wu Jianquan is good at neutralizing people but not good at shooting them away. Therefore both of these men have a shortcoming, but if they were strong in both qualities, then they would be at the peak of Taiji skill.”

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... xperience/

a good read and also addresses some of the questions asked here.


I originally posted some of the history because of the questions concerning chen style, naming, why and how did YLC learn it ect. hoping to provide context for some of the speculation with things that were written from an historical perspective by either families or others.


As for past contest and present contest ect.

While it is interesting it is also way off topic for "willies" thread

The pro's and con's of external influence. AKA peer pressure created from main stream media.

Pro's. Because of the courageous efforts of modern day fighters we have the very fortunate luxury of seeing how things work in the ring and learn different skills and defenses.

Con's. If you train an art like taijiquan. You can not just go ask Iron Mike Tyson how to improve your taiji. He could definitely teach you to fight, But he's not qualified to teach you how to fight with taijiquan. You have to learn each and every move and train to actually use it.

So where does taijiquan really fit in with modern times and in a modern world?



"As a young teenager, and later a young GI in the US Army I would have many encounters with people who practiced different styles correcting what I felt were misconceptions about CMA. In the traditional way the style white crane spoke through me in answer to their questions. What I used was what I trained with no modifications " I've worked with those who did compete but never felt the need to compete myself not my thing...

This is what I did. Had taiji been my first style I might have done the same its hard to say...

I would say CMA fits into the modern world provided that people understand what they'er training for, and train for it.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby cloudz on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:26 am

David, yes I appreciate the stories and information.. But you made the following statement;

All the taiji stylist of the time did compete in local sporting events of the day.


That needs qualifying and exploring because it doesn't seem to be the case at all. Like I said I heard of one guy.
You went on to say that it wasn't carried on into modern times - whether that's taiji guys or not.
Well sure a combat sport environment had to be created in modern times; Sanda

You are saying it was lost (a tradition of public pugilistic emptyhand sports fighting), I'm suggesting that it probably never existed or got going other than a few one offs, personal challenges (not organized or public), and the theatre/ performer tradition.

You were playing down the taiji competition push hands tradition, but it seems more likely than anything else given that wrestling was a common martial trial included in military circles. The same circles in which YLC's famous disciples were a part of.

regards
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:43 am

cloudz wrote:David, yes I appreciate the stories and information.. But you made the following statement;

All the taiji stylist of the time did compete in local sporting events of the day.


That needs qualifying and exploring because it doesn't seem to be the case at all. Like I said I heard of one guy.
You went on to say that it wasn't carried on into modern times - whether that's taiji guys or not.
Well sure a combat sport environment had to be created in modern times; Sanda

You are saying it was lost (a tradition of public pugilistic emtyhand sports fighting), I'm suggesting that it probably never existed or got going other than a few one offs, personal challenges (not organized or public), and the theatre/ performer tradition.

Hard to say,,,I must be missing something... Once, when Yang Pan Hou had bested an opponent and was proud of himself because of it, Yang Lu Chan, his illustrious father pointed to Pan Hou's torn sleeve and said that he was happy that Pan Hou had won but did he use Taijiquan to win?

The implication is of course that a torn sleeve is a sign of inappropriately used great power. Yang Lu Chan's own boxing was so soft that it was nicknamed cotton fist or neutralising fist and was once berated as not being combat effective because of its softness, a point which Yang refuted by promptly defeating the antagoniser. More on this later on...
I believe the one he fought was an eagle claw exponent.
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/combat.html

You were playing down the taiji competition push hands tradition, but it's more likely than anything else given that wrestling was a common martial trial included in military circles. The same circles in which YLC's famous disciples were a part of.

The push hands thing is based on my own experience of course others may differ. For the matches that I've read about each teacher used what ever they trained in..I've worked with taiji for awhile and have come to my own conclusions on this. not a fan of push hands for competition..

regards


Yes regards,
maybe I'm looking at things a little differently.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby cloudz on Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:02 am

Like I said I can appreciate the stories, but I can't equate some anecdotal challenge fights here and there as "local sporting events of the day". Those kind of stories are one thing and genuine historic research and evidence of organised public fighting is another. I'm suggesting that there were not really any such thing as 'local sporting events' where empty hand pugilism (not wrestling) was concerned. Or if there were they were few and far between and the examples of the early twentieth century that we know about were pretty much the pinnacle and totality of it. Those competitions were also probably influenced in no small part by what was happening in the West, that whole movement around the martial schools was about modernizing and 'moving on' from the past...
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:46 am

Steve James wrote:
charles wrote:Interesting.

Were it not for the crooked bastard, and the willingness of the stupid Chen family to teach someone whom they felt was worthy, chances are near zero that a white guy like you or me, on the other side of the world, centuries later, would be practicing any kind of Taijiquan, let alone Chen family/style....


+1

Ya also gotta give him some credit. He managed to earn the nickname "invincible" while using a weakened, incomplete version of an art.

Anyway, the fact that YLC didn't call what he did Chen style, and wasn't the entire Chen curriculum, illustrates that he had no intention of stealing, only making a living with his own art. He even acknowledged where he had learned. None of this takes anything away from Chen style, either.


Before you go marking other peoples opinions + perhaps you should get it right yourself? He did attempt to steal their art and teach it against the promises he made. All for money and fame. Now if that was my life work that he stole and then profited on....
Listen carefully to this truthful account of YLC teaching Chen style in Beijing. He created Yang style as a weakened art on purpose.
Maybe it should of said "Chen the invincible".
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:59 am

willie wrote: He created Yang style as a weakened art on purpose.


Absolutely true. At least for what he taught more open. YLC used big, beautiful movements to teach officials and the literati. Later Chen Fake taught a weakened Chen Style with big, bold movements to the public just to attract those who liked Yang T'ai Chi.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:08 am

windwalker wrote:
Chen Changxing (1771-1853), the 14th generation Chen patriarch, was the first to teach Chen Taijiquan to an outsider, Yang Luchan (1799-1872). Vowing to his master to never teach Taijiquan to the public or use its name,




Chen Fake answered, If the revered master Wu thinks it is external, then it is external! We did not have this distinction at home. (Later on, in a remarkable reversal of logic, this statement was actually quoted by some as proof that Chen Style Taijiquan is not the original source of Taijiquan, since family member Chen Fake did not even acknowledge it as an internal style.)


YLC broke that promise. Not so imperial after all, was he?

Chen Fake most likely didn't think that master Wu was on his level and said that on purpose. It's like the new student questioning the master's skill and knowledge.
And he also had the wisdom to see through the "I'm internal and you are not" attitude". It's belittling at best.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:15 am

Bao wrote:
willie wrote: He created Yang style as a weakened art on purpose.


Absolutely true. At least for what he taught more open. YLC used big, beautiful movements to teach officials and the literati. Later Chen Fake taught a weakened Chen Style with big, bold movements to the public just to attract those who liked Yang T'ai Chi.

Trust me, I like Yang style, it's part of me. Also my old yang style teacher who I have deep gratitude for, reads just about everything I write here.
My Main Chen teacher told me that he believes that YLC's power still resides in isolated individuals of Wu style.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:19 am

Seems like totally unnecessary YLC bashing. He profited from his skill, however anyone claims he got it. You can't steal ability.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:26 am

Steve James wrote:Seems like totally unnecessary YLC bashing. He profited from his skill, however anyone claims he got it. You can't steal ability.


Maybe you like crackheads breaking in your house and stealing your belongings? LOL!
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:29 am

Like with every good movie, I think it's a good time for intermission, don't you?
An old video that I enjoyed immensely.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:34 am

willie wrote:
Steve James wrote:Seems like totally unnecessary YLC bashing. He profited from his skill, however anyone claims he got it. You can't steal ability.


Maybe you like crackheads breaking in your house and stealing your belongings? LOL!


Yep. Laughable.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 am

Steve James wrote:
willie wrote:
Steve James wrote:Seems like totally unnecessary YLC bashing. He profited from his skill, however anyone claims he got it. You can't steal ability.


Maybe you like crackheads breaking in your house and stealing your belongings? LOL!


Yep. Laughable.
hi Steve. Well I'm glad that you found it laughable , because that was the way it was meant to be anyways. I was actually laughing when I wrote it myself, trying to be a smart-ass. But now that I think about it, it kind of shows how gullible people are when reading about characters from a history book.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:04 am

Well, imo, your argument about theft is ridiculous, whether you are serious or not. As Charles said, the only reason you or I have been able to learn tcc is because it was taught to YLC who, like us, was not a family member. YLC is the reason tcc was made public. That's not a legend.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:10 am

Steve James wrote:Well, imo, your argument about theft is ridiculous, whether you are serious or not. As Charles said, the only reason you or I have been able to learn tcc is because it was taught to YLC who, like us, was not a family member. YLC is the reason tcc was made public. That's not a legend.
no, it's not my argument. It's the Chen families argument. As a matter of fact my opinions are based on that. There is actually a video of CXW telling the story of YLC when he was actually caught stealing the family art. And the family discussing whether or not they were going to kill him. Perhaps I will take the time and find that video and post it so you can get your facts correct.
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