External Sports Influence

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:43 am

Don't bother about the video. It really doesn't matter. If YLC learned something he wasn't supposed to, there's no reason for you to know it either. If CXW can decide to teach non-Chen family outsiders, so could his ancestors. TCC didn't become world famous because of Chen style. It wasn't until the early 80s that it was even widely known outside of China. That was the result of the war and early communist regime. Before the late 70s, most of the tcma --and specifically tcc, bg, and xy-- came from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Shanghai and other non-communist regions.

TCC, in whatever form it was known, had spread worldwide long before that. Whether it deserved the acclaim or not, it was Yang style that had it. However, I was in Madison Square Garden when the Chinese Wushu Team from Peking did their demonstration. One of the members was a young Jet Li. But, I'll never forget 1, the Iron chigung guy, but 2, when they introduced Chen style tcc as the "real, original" taichi. That was summer 1980. It took perhaps 3 or more years before the "the four tigers of Chenjiagou" were introduced in Inside Kung Fu and other tcc magazines. One of them, of course, was CXW.

I am not going to say that he's wrong. I study folklore, and I know that family histories are important. I'll only say that I don't care if he describes what YLC did as stealing. He was the one to begin the process of making tcc famous. Even more debt is owed to YCF.

But, since the 80s, there's been a constant attempt to disprove this or that tcc legend. It's silly since tcc is not highly regarded by many other martial arts. So, it's a pissing contest for nothing. It proves nothing about individual skill.

And, if it was stolen, there's no way to give it back.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby charles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:45 am

willie wrote: There is actually a video of CXW telling the story of YLC when he was actually caught stealing the family art. And the family discussing whether or not they were going to kill him. Perhaps I will take the time and find that video and post it so you can get your facts correct.


I'd like to see that. I'm curious how it turned out for him. ;)
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:52 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote: There is actually a video of CXW telling the story of YLC when he was actually caught stealing the family art. And the family discussing whether or not they were going to kill him. Perhaps I will take the time and find that video and post it so you can get your facts correct.


I'd like to see that. I'm curious how it turned out for him. ;)


It turned out exactly how the rest of the story is told. They decided not to kill him, but instead teach him formally, then they didn't have too.
But other's changed the story saying that YLC was soooooooooooooo goooooooooooooood that they decided to spaaaaaaaare him. LOL!

Boy you guys took my beautiful thread way of Traaaaaaaaaack.
Last edited by willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:47 am

willie wrote:They decided not to kill him, but instead teach him formally, then they didn't have too.


So that's CXW's version of what happened? :-\

What I've heard was that YLC didn't try to steal or even copy anything. It was the Chen's who caught YLC practicing Xiao hong quan. They were so impressed by YLC that they wanted to exchange knowledge. What YLC know and studied was also kept in secret back then, so it was more about trading secrets. YLC was so gifted and such a quick learner that Chen Changxing took him as a student. But Chen Changxing only taught YLC the very basics of Chen family boxing. Instead he taught YLC a similar art that was passed to him (probably indirectly) from Jiang Fa. This story makes more sense if you look at the differences between YLC TJQ and Chen style.

( I do believe that the real story is slightly different, but... :P )
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:10 pm

willie wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, imo, your argument about theft is ridiculous, whether you are serious or not. As Charles said, the only reason you or I have been able to learn tcc is because it was taught to YLC who, like us, was not a family member. YLC is the reason tcc was made public. That's not a legend.
no, it's not my argument. It's the Chen families argument. As a matter of fact my opinions are based on that. There is actually a video of CXW telling the story of YLC when he was actually caught stealing the family art. And the family discussing whether or not they were going to kill him. Perhaps I will take the time and find that video and post it so you can get your facts correct.


What "facts" would they be other then a different accounting by a chen family member.

Another family member talks about the chen style being called taiji

Hong Junsheng, a disciple of Chen Fake, was understandably upset about this treatment of Chen Style. He began his Taiji studies with Wu style, and later switched to Chen Style. For him, Chen and Wu were both authentic Taijiquan styles, and both were internal.

He begged his teacher for an explanation. Master Chen’s answer had nothing to do with either Chen or Wu styles: My ancestors invented it. My great grandfather practiced it [translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style].

My father practiced it.

I practice it now. We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!"


http://practicalmethod.com/2012/02/from ... in-a-name/

One interesting note the "chens" if one follows this family members accounting. at that time they didn't see things as internal or external it was just what they practiced and used at "that time"

I agree with what some others posted, it would be interesting to read or hear
of the accounting of YLC stay from a chen family member perspective.
Maybe if you can't find the clip you could just summarize.

Not looking for proof, validation, or anything only ask out of an academic interest.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:36 pm

almost 100% marketing b.s.

what can you do that you make useful? to paraphrase bruce lee.

the first Chen who had this art had his personal "mma" based on longfist and whatever he learned. that is almost by definition completely different than Sun Lutang's personal mma based on the big 3 (some way he is the one who categorized tjq, bgz, xyq as this ima family). who cares. there is no way to know which individual was better, the same way we will never know if fedor woulda beat couture by a lot or vice versa. would you rather study couture's grappling or fedor's sambo? which one is better for you? dunno.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby charles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:08 pm

windwalker wrote: it would be interesting to read or hear of the accounting of YLC stay from a chen family member perspective.


For a while, Zhu Tiancai - his mother's name is Chen - had a sort of touring seminar. It was somewhat of a "canned" presentation in that the format and content was repeated at each location. As part of the formal lecture segment, he discussed the history of the Chen family art. That touches on Yang Luchan. I'll summarize the notes I took on the subject from this part of his lecture. How accurate his view is, I don't know. You asked for an account by Chen family members, so here is one:


ZTC stated that there are lots of movies about how YLC learned TJQ. The only fact is that YLC learned TJQ from Chen Village. Also true is that YLC first tried to learn Chen TJQ on his own without instruction.... A Chen family member owned a pharmacy in YLC's home town and YLC worked for him. When the family member retired, he returned to Chen Village and took YLC with him. YLC was in his 20's at that time.

At that time, there were many schools of Chen TJQ in Chen Village and villagers could choose from any number. As a servant, YLC had no right to study with them. At that time, one could see TJQ practiced openly everywhere in Chen Village - it was not taught in secret. YLC watched other people and practiced on his own.

YLC's friends, villagers who did practice Chen TJQ, would use YLC to practice on, to try techniques they had learned in class. Being a quick study, YLC learned many of the techniques and practiced by himself. One night an instructor saw YLC practicing by himself...eventually asking YLC to join the class.

YLC trained for 7 years, at which point his (retired) boss died and Village elders "freed" him, at which point YLC returned to his home town teaching Lao Jia.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:48 pm

charles wrote:YLC trained for 7 years, at which point his (retired) boss died and Village elders "freed" him, at which point YLC returned to his home town teaching Lao Jia.


It is my understanding that YLC trained in Chen Village on 3 distinct 6 year periods for a total of 18 years. It is said that he first left the village after having studied for 6 years and then accepted a challenge. He was beaten badly, so he returned to the village and studied for another 6 years, left the village again, accepted another challenge and fought to a tie. He again returned to the village for another 6 years, left the village again and accepted another challenge. This time he won handily and never returned to the village, but instead started teaching. When the people witnessed his boxing they called it Cotton Fist.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:58 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:
charles wrote:YLC trained for 7 years, at which point his (retired) boss died and Village elders "freed" him, at which point YLC returned to his home town teaching Lao Jia.


It is my understanding that YLC trained in Chen Village on 3 distinct 6 year periods for a total of 18 years. It is said that he first left the village after having studied for 6 years and then accepted a challenge. He was beaten badly, so he returned to the village and studied for another 6 years, left the village again, accepted another challenge and fought to a tie. He again returned to the village for another 6 years, left the village again and accepted another challenge. This time he won handily and never returned to the village, but instead started teaching. When the people witnessed his boxing they called it Cotton Fist.
yes I heard 18 years as well. But I never heard that story. Pretty cool thanks
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:04 pm

everything wrote:almost 100% marketing b.s.

what can you do that you make useful? to paraphrase bruce lee.

the first Chen who had this art had his personal "mma" based on longfist and whatever he learned. that is almost by definition completely different than Sun Lutang's personal mma based on the big 3 (some way he is the one who categorized tjq, bgz, xyq as this ima family). who cares. there is no way to know which individual was better, the same way we will never know if fedor woulda beat couture by a lot or vice versa. would you rather study couture's grappling or fedor's sambo? which one is better for you? dunno.
just curious what you mean by MMA? MMA to me is a specific art consisting of Brazilian jiu jitsu, kickboxing, Muay Thai, and perhaps some Greco-Roman wrestling as well.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby willie on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:18 pm

I agree with what some others posted, it would be interesting to read or hear
of the accounting of YLC stay from a chen family member perspective.
Maybe if you can't find the clip you could just summarize.

Not looking for proof, validation, or anything only ask out of an academic interest.[/quote]
Actually David, I just think that you have something against Chen style to begin with, perhaps you should sort that out first?
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby everything on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:51 pm

Two things really.

There is modern sport mma.

More broadly, almost all MA are a type of mixed MA. Sun style, Wu style, Yiquan, the original Chen style, Yang's art, Baguazhang, Kano's judo, sambo, and others are/were a personal "mix" of what the founder studied and integrated.

Going farther, when an art is "hardened" into something standard, it focus on one thing, which by definition means it doesn't focus on other things.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:33 pm

willie wrote:Actually David, I just think that you have something against Chen style to begin with, perhaps you should sort that out first?


mmm, my thoughts on chen are that I've found it not to be much different then any other CMA. What I never liked about it was what seemed to be the constant marketing comparison with "yang's" style which is clearly quite different and uses a different approach.

Just as CMC style is quite different then "yang's style" some of the yang people try to say the same things when it also is clearly a different approach.

Interesting enough people I've met asked me if I ever practiced chen style noting that my "yang" style seemed to reflect it...Since I no longer practice "yang's" style it doesn't really concern me anymore,,,I've found my own answers and now just practice my work sharing it with those interested.

I do find the history interesting, respect all CMA, and consider my myself a fellow practitioner of them.
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Trick on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:36 pm

Bao wrote:
What I've heard was that YLC didn't try to steal or even copy anything. It was the Chen's who caught YLC practicing Xiao hong quan. They were so impressed by YLC that they wanted to exchange knowledge.

Hmmm, so YLC went to the Chen village to practice Shaolin boxing ??
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Re: External Sports Influence

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:49 pm

Trick wrote:Hmmm, so YLC went to the Chen village to practice Shaolin boxing ??


No, YLC already knew and studied Shaolin. Of course he was going to continue practice his own stuff when he got there (to work). Why do you believe that he should give up his practice? :-\
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