Where is the "art" in MMA?

[sdavis]

Its "THE SNOWLEOPARD" guys. He has a history of writing posts like this. I think it all just a joke to see who he can rile up. The snowleopard is really a cayote...

[neijia_boxer]

Here

LOL that was awesome

[D_Glenn]

martial art is just a name coined in the XIX century by some french or occidental guy. You're getting lost in the term.
There's no traditional definition of MA as an "art" in the aesthetic mean of the word in origin countries, not japan nor China...

Said that.

I consider someone an "artist" when he know what he wants to do, know why it's not doing it and find the way to do it in an eficient and original way.

Some Mixed martial artist fit in that category

Actually that's not true.

We had a whole thread on this but basically in China the word 術 Shu is what we call 'Art'. The Ancient meaning is simply: Road, which isn't too far from the modern meaning.The character is comprised of 行 'Xing' (meaning to walk) which itself consists of the characters for the left and right foot. The middle character is only the phonetic of 'shu'.

So we have 拳術 Quanshu - fist arts; 武術 wu shu - military/martial art.

術 Shu (art;skill) is a classifier for any path or endeavor upon which we study everyday and gain skill in. It's a path forward, one foot after the other.

True skill is something that other people appreciate when they see it, be it a fine artist's paintings, a gymnast's movements, etc.

The problem is that in the Martial Arts many people seek the aesthetic quality before there is any real skill.

In a true Martial Art it is ugly, violent, and chaotic. Only until there is a very high level of skill is it something that is enjoyable to watch, or is pleasing to the eye, despite it's pure violent nature.

IMO there is 'art' in MMA, only it's just in the skilled guys such as Fedor E.


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[Dmitri]

Not to take away from the trollishness of the OP, but...

IMO there is 'art' in MMA, only it's just in the skilled guys such as Fedor E.

Funny how some of the most skilled guys, and specifically those brought up as examples in this "MMA" thread, like Fedor and Rickson, don't actually "do MMA", they specialize in one art... (sambo, bjj, etc.)

[zenshiite]

I'll agree with the OPs observation on kicks in MMA bouts. Most guys, unless they are really well versed in kicking arts like karate, san shou, or muay thai don't throw the most pretty or effective kicks in the game. Which is why, IMO, alot of guys in Strikeforce find Cung Le's kicks devastating resulting in busted forearms and spinning back kick KOs. They aren't versed in it, they aren't prepared for it, and when a guy does it clean and crisp with alot of force... that's the end of it. Lyoto Machida is very much the same.

However, the art is in the fact that these guys get in there... get pummeled, do some pummeling, and managed to keep their whits about them, strategize, adapt to changes in the line of fire etc. Heck, the nuances of the ground fight are important. The problem with the ground has always been that a lot of guys take that opportunity to catch a breather. "Lay and pray" as Chuck Liddel calls it in his autobiography. Early on the wrestlers that didn't have a whole lot of striking did this regularly. Things have changed, these fights are more exciting and more interesting to watch not just because these dudes are really going at it... but if you watch enough you'll start to see the skill level involved. The better, more experienced and often older the fighter, the higher level of "art" you see in their martial arts. The standouts, for me, are often guys with traditional backgrounds... but you see it in others as well.

The thing that will be a constant in MMA is that it caters to certain guys, many of whom just have a sheer will to dominate... get a few skills to enable themselves to survive but ultimately the are caged beasts unleashed in the ring/cage and they can often get the better of more technically proficient opponents. Combine that kind of ferocity with technical skill and years of dedication to a certain skill set trained in a particular art they've chosen, and you've got some really skilled martial artists.

I used to think like the OP, until I really started watching a lot of fights... you don't even have to be a martial artist to appreciate what you see there. If you watch enough bouts you're going to see what's going on there.

[D_Glenn]

Funny how some of the most skilled guys, and specifically those brought up as examples in this "MMA" thread, like Fedor and Rickson, don't actually "do MMA", they specialize in one art... (sambo, bjj, etc.)

That's due to the muddled history of MMA by people who weren't old enough when it first began.

Before UFC we had full-contact tournaments but with style specific rules - karate with no strikes to head to encourage kicking, boxing with only punches, wrestling and judo, etc.

MMA or Vale Tudo (anything goes) signifies that there are no rules that would make it favorable for one style to always be on top. The rules favor all martial art styles. It doesn't mean that one has to do multiple styles of martial arts. Only that martial artists from any style can 'Mix it up'.


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[Chris McKinley]

Fighting isn't an art

Is this guy for real? Surely not, no-one can be that dumb can they?

Yes. Yes they can.

[Josealb]

Guys...i think we should give Snow a chance. I mean...hes only 22 and has "Practiced rigorously for a year and continuing now".

[Chris McKinley]

The Li Family or whoever this guy's teacher is needs to invest in a better leash harness and a good helmet.

[Dmitri]

D_Glenn, by "do MMA" I was talking about "MMA" as training practice, not as competition format. I.e. taking Muay Thai classes in addition to BJJ, taking judo to supplement boxing, etc.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

art 1 (ärt)
n.
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.
a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
b. The study of these activities.
c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
6.
a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities:
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods
7.
a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties
8.
a. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
b. Artful contrivance; cunning.


The art is in mixed martial arts by the very definition of it it would seem.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Judging by the posts of many posters in this forum, martial artists or not, it appears that people firmly see an "art" form in the UFC ring at work during their actual random brawls. So what exactly is that art that you observe there? Of course, if you are artistically inclined person, you are bound to see artistic beauty in anything you wish to perceive as beautiful, but even otherwise, why is this random exchange of uncommitted, clumsy and weak punches and kicks, and ludicrous rolling on the ground while hugging each other, perceived as a great art form by the posters (I won't use the term MAist) here? Thats just sports entertainment, nothing more.

These are the essential qualities a pugilist intends to develop for unarmed combat :-

1. Body conditioning (like in Muay Chaiya)
2. Basic strength (but without steroids)
3. Agility.
4. Flexibility.
5. Reflexes (state of mind).

Which among these are the MMAers adepts at? Body condition? None. Basic strength? Yeah, may by after working out in a gym (which is counter-productive towards other qualities). Agility? Don't make me laugh at those bulls who move no faster than random people. Flexibility? Kick with one leg above waist, and the knee of the other leg bends as a response. Leave aside flexibility, it appears that they are working hard to achieve stiffness. Reflexes? None whatsoever. Even the natural reflexes that humans seem to be greatly reduced, instead of being enhanced, in these sportsmen?

I did not mention techniques, because they are the last requirement for combat. In any case, "knowing" techniques is not enough. They should be ingrained in the body of the fighter and surface as and when required during real engagement in combat. MMAers know lots of techniques and you might even find them trying to apply them once in a while which are feasible in that condition, but do they really "possess skills"?

Considering the above points, how on Earth is MMA considered an art, let alone a true representation of a real fight?

Ok so instead of saying muay thai you say muay chaiya so that means you are one of those kids that thinks that muay thai suxxors. Secondly even if you agree that MMA fighters suxxors the only thing they have going for most of them is speed and agility and strength.

And if anyone can't see the beauty in Brookins throw and choke here and the skill it took to do so, they are just ignorant.

[Wuming]

troll troll troll troll troll

[SnowLeopard]

"is your contention that a mma fighter such as machada or anderson silva or any number of known and unknown mma fighters have no "body condition", " agility", "flexibility"? are you really claiming that these mma fighters are "uncommitted, clumsy and weak punches and kicks" if you are i say you are really missing something or you must be great."

Anderson Silva is among the more skilled guys in the sports arena, and that is attributed to the fact that he does work upon the points I had listed.

I strongly recommend a trip to your local MMA gym, tell them you want to spar. Probably best not to tell them that you do TCMA and think their shit is fake though.


Even if I were to go to such a place, the fact that me and my sparring partner would be subconsciously cautious of not inflicting any harm on each other would act as a counter-measure to make the whole exercise an unrealistic affair making it further deviate from simulating any realistic fighting. By the way, I do TCMA, but I am a beginner. Yet I am not beginner when it comes to street fighting (i.e not involving any "arts" like the one I am currently learning or have learned in past).

Is this guy for real? Surely not, no-one can be that dumb can they?

No, I am not for real. How can I be dumb, dumbass?

Guys...i think we should give Snow a chance. I mean...hes only 22 and has "Practiced rigorously for a year and continuing now".

Give me a chance for what, dummy? The thread is about the absence of any art form in t he popular sports entertainment that is a trend in the west nowadays.

[SnowLeopard]

troll troll troll troll troll

Time to sleep. Will reply tomorrow. Good night.