Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby kshurika on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:51 am

Shooter: You typed the last sentence of the last paragraph in such a fury that it hardly makes sense.



Shooter+yoga = happy Shooter (tell RobP2)
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby BruceP on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:58 am

If you serve as any kind of example of what yoga does for someone in terms of cultivating a balanced, objective and logical mind, not to mention what kind of person it makes you, no thanks
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby kshurika on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:06 pm

.




You're so easy, Shooter. So very easy.







.
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:31 pm

I, for one, object to you calling Shooter a Brit. He's Canadian, damnit! OK, we have the same royal family....
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby Mr_Wood on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:38 pm

I like that someone mentioned we should post videos of street fights we have been in :D

Next time I go to the pub I will be sure to attach my shoulder cam just in case ;)
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby kshurika on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:40 pm

He's Canadian?! Great! I'll save on postage when I send him the same "Thomas and Friends" videos that I'm sending yusuf.



btw, I loved "The King's Speech".
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby Shane_Lindsay on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:02 pm

For the record- Tim is happy the preview was posted, and is always disappointed when a thread spirals into name calling and arguments of 'realism'.
He also dislikes it when his students and friends participate in rediculous cyber arguments and insults. Tim is also not fond of his students inviting folks they are angering down to the school for open mat. He is happy to have folks show up at open mat, but he doesn't particularly appreciate folks throwing down a challange for him.

Shooter and all who wonder why Cartmellites responded when "Nobody has questioned Tim's 'Street cred' " if you look at the preview... Tim specifies that "this DVD is not for sport or clinch fighting in the ring, but geared toward holds you actually happen on the street... typically a street fight will go quickly from striking range to clinching range to the ground... we're going to focus on escapes from the clinching range...."

A couple of the first responses, Shooters and others; was "looks good, but not for the street- looks like sport fighting"

So- in essence Shooter and others were saying "this DVD isn't what Tim says it is, looks great for sport fighting- but wont apply in the street"
(at least that's what I responded to- and I tried to do it in a non-confrontational way- but maybe I was rude).

By the way- when Tim studied with Luo in Taiwan, they worked on concrete. You either knew how to fall correctly or you got yourself hurt. Learning how to fall safetly on a mat translates fine to any other surface. You may get scratched up or even a little glass in your back, but knowing how to roll out of a bad fall works whereever you are, regardless of how you learned the mechanics.

I'm working on the new preview for Tim's "Ground Proofing" DVD- which is geared towards helping a novice avoid the ground- and have a better chance on the ground. I can already hear the pocket-protectors rattling.

Peace and Gloves,
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby yusuf on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:10 pm

strawdog wrote:
In the end this video is not about showing "the reality" of street brawls. Go buy Bum Fights if that's what you're into. It's about how to train standing grappling escapes and counters that can be applicable in a sport fight or in a pinch work in a street fight.

...
If you want to learn standing grappling escapes and counters you can learn a lot from this DVD. If you want to see the reality of street violence go to Youtube there are lots of videos there.



That is a response that would have kept this topic on the merits of the dvd, which I presume is the purpose of the thread. Instead even sensible responses are met with an almost bullying, nasty vibe to every sarcasm dripping comment.

Why don;t you guys print off the entire thread and see if Tim is happy with your way of representing him.


edited to add: Shane I agree, but there is stuff on the clip (which is a summary of the actual dvd i presume) which uses a technique where Tim deliberately pulls the opponent down, tomo nages them and then puts them into an armbar.. if that is part of this dvd then that is something i would never train . there is nothing wrong with the technique but i only train on concrete or grass, so it isn't something i would ever drill ...

an observation from Shooter similar to that seems have led to all this furore...
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby kshurika on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:10 pm

Phew! Good thing I only invited to "open parking lot". Well, I'm done with this.
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Re: DVDs and disputations

Postby BruceP on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:07 pm

Shane, like I said, it's good basics. I also said that those good basics can be trained to a very solid and functional level on the mat. I also said that I, personally, don't think it's unreasonable to see the material being trained outdoors in a manner that closely replicates the conditions one would be applying the techniques under. What I saw in the preview was lots of fast, technical movement done with a certain abandon that you don't normally see when the material has been trained on hard, uneven ground and the like. It looked really sporty and very technical, but that elan/gusto tends to result in broken elbows and kneecaps and road rash and whatnot when it's done outdoors. Tomoe nage might be ok if you're wearing a helmet, but can be very risky otherwise. You gotta train smart afterall.

I tried to explain why I feel that way by sharing some of my own findings regards rapid and precise foot placement, and how a lot of that goes out the window once you take the material off the mat and into natural environs. Footing can often be compromised and less than optimal so what you're able to pull off hundreds of times on the mat might get you into lots of trouble if you haven't spent time training the same techniques on slippery grass or with smooth soled shoes, or on loose gravel. Sheesh...the fact that I gotta point out that very real thing says something. Anyway, as the material starts to go out the window, the training shifts intelligently and adaptively toward those other questions I talked about earlier. The solutions start coming from basic ideas rather than specific techniques. That's all I'm going to say about that.

I also gotta say, until you've done the work of falling, tumbling, roll/recovery and get-ups outdoors, again, on a variety of natural and man-made surfaces, you can't assume falling is the same as on a mat because it often isn't. More broken elbows, kneecaps, skulls and road rash. That Tim was trained on hard surfaces doesn't matter if the caveat isn't made to the guy who buys the dvd that the material will be very different once it's taken off the mat. A few examples shown at the end of the dvd is all one really needs to get them headed in that direction. That's all I'm going to say about that.
Last edited by BruceP on Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby qiphlow on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:31 pm

GrahamB wrote:Whenever you are upset about an event, a person, or a situation, the real cause is not the event, person, or situation but a loss of true perspective that only space can provide. You are trapped in object consciousness, unaware of the timeless inner space of consciousness itself.

The words This, too, will pass when used as a pointer can restore awareness of that dimension to you.

you need less tai chi, hippie.
;)
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Re: DVDs and disputations

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:51 pm

Says yoga boy.
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Re: DVDs and disputations

Postby BruceP on Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:37 pm

Forget it, Yusuf. What could any of us non-cartmellites possibly know about street fighting that they don't? That any of them would bother to acknowledge the very sound points some of us have made regarding this whole street-sport thing doesn't matter.

I'm just glad people are paying attention and are able to see the value in what some of us have contributed to this discussion. I hope everyone takes their standing grappling mess outdoors and plays at it under enough pressure to find their own truth in what has been suggested here, make the comparisons and see for themselves.
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby Ian on Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:46 pm

Shane_Lindsay wrote:Tim is also not fond of his students inviting folks they are angering down to the school for open mat. He is happy to have folks show up at open mat, but he doesn't particularly appreciate folks throwing down a challange for him.


;D

I think most of us have been invited to fly to California at one time or another.
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Re: Tim Cartmell's Standing Grappling, Escapes & Counters DVD

Postby gzregorz on Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:09 pm

GrahamB wrote:Yeah, if trouble ever comes to me I'll whip out my laptop and ask him to stop so I can watch the DVD, because, you inow it says "street" somewhere in the description. I just hope Mt Mugger is ok with this.


Street Sambo!

;)

Last edited by gzregorz on Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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