the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Okay.... let's look at this objectively:

I put up a preview of a DVD which expertly covers how to get out of 'headlocks', bearhugs (overarm and underarm), quillotines, front chokes, rear chokes and tackles and grabs, full nelsons and half nelsons.

Personally- I know this information is useful for anyone who wants to better arm themselves (sport or street or playground).

I know Tim's ability to break things down and explain them so that anyone can learn from them (newbies and experts pickup things)

Quickly a few folks started saying "looks great- but looks like sport not street".


So I ask.... in what sport fight has anyone seen a headlock or bearhug in the last twenty years? (please don't mention the Iron Sheik, Hulk Hogan or the Rock)

Why would someone not want to better their own ability to counter these holds?
Why would someone not want to learn better how to throw using less effort (a couple of cool finishes too)?

Even if you don't want to fight (I don't) its great to know this stuff- and if you have a friend or two, or even a class full of students each of these techniques can be practiced and they all work remarkable easily and well.

I'm done.
And I'm doubting my decision to post the clip here- Emptyflower used to be a cool site- what happened?

Chris Fleming wrote:
To be fair, you were the one who said if you have criticisms you ought to put up a clip of your own work. Got street fights?

Ha! You are right, Chris. Fair enough. I'm sworn to silence now about clips I've posted. So I can't talk about a clip I posted a long time ago showing some action in one of my MMA matches where I allow myself to be attacked hockey-fight style (I wore a gi), and I'm not allowed to punch or kick to defend myself. The closest I've got to a streetfight clip, sorry. At the time I wanted to test a few ideas on defending and countering because I consider hockey-fight to be one of the top 3 'common' streetfighting situations along with the sucker-punch and rush/tackle. Having said all that, I'm not really criticising the material.

I've stated twice in this thread that the material is good basics. I'll go further and say that anyone who isn't familiar with what Tim is offering would benefit tremendously I'm sure if they were to buy the dvd and actually do the work. I have no doubt that Tim explains everything in straightforward, simple terms and shows how to graduate the training's intensity and levels of resistance. I have no problem seeing it for what it is.

I also pointed out that the structure of the training changes once enviro, terrain and context comes into the mix. All I saw was guys with bare feet on a mat. What I failed to say was how dramatically the change is once one makes that leap - how the whole focus of the training shifts.

Nobody who has watched the entire dvd mentioned anything in their review(s) about those ideas, so I was left with the impression that the material starts and finishes on the mat. I may be wrong, but I don't think what's shown in the clip is conducive to really breaking things down under 'realistic' conditions. The fact that Tim's guys think that's a slight against Tim - instead of seeing what I'm saying for what it is - says to me that the material they're covering on the dvd isn't being trained outdoors on hard, unforgiving surfaces, and that it makes what I'm saying moot to those of us who have trained that way. Again, that's not a slight. It's an observation of how Tims guys view the material through a different training experience that ignores a more 'realistic' level of exploration.

I'm just wondering how one can realistically train material for street fighting without putting it in its proper perspectives? I think it's a fair question that doesn't require me to post a clip to one-up anybody in order to substantiate the reasoning behind it.

No vid can cover all possibilities.

No big deal to point that out IMO.

You shouldn't make snide comments and I'll go on happily ignoring you.

everything.... do you really think that needs to be "pointed out" to folks who study Martial Arts? (Anyone who is gulible enough to believe a video can cover all possibilities probably can't read well enough to absorb your posts).

Anyone else want to tell me when they've seen a headlock in a sport fighting event? EVER?

Hey look there's an ignore feature. I forgot all about it.

Nah no need. My interpretation was I think those guys were making normal comments as with any vid and you guys seem defensive for some reason. AFAIK everyone thought the vid looks good but did not agree on scope. I doubt Tim or any great teacher would really care or find fault with multiple interpretations of a promo clip. Anyone marketing anything will find this. Anyway fwiw the clip makes me want to get it (all Tims stuff really) sport vs street argument - who really cares - doesn't diminish the teacher, clip, or viewers with other opinions in my mind. Pretty sure I'd like to train with any of you guys from reading the other posts/threads.

Sounds like you understand the fun, comradery, and friendship bound by training. I say good on ya my friend ++

Skipping in taiji? That sounds interesting, I'd like to know more about that (I've not seen it in my own experience yet)... Perhaps it is a way of moving suddenly?

(Anyway, flaming back and forth has always been a part of the old 'flower, so... it's almost nostalgic )

Shooter wrote:

Chris Fleming wrote:
To be fair, you were the one who said if you have criticisms you ought to put up a clip of your own work. Got street fights?

Ha! You are right, Chris. Fair enough. I'm sworn to silence now about clips I've posted. So I can't talk about a clip I posted a long time ago showing some action in one of my MMA matches where I allow myself to be attacked hockey-fight style (I wore a gi), and I'm not allowed to punch or kick to defend myself. The closest I've got to a streetfight clip, sorry. At the time I wanted to test a few ideas on defending and countering because I consider hockey-fight to be one of the top 3 'common' streetfighting situations along with the sucker-punch and rush/tackle. Having said all that, I'm not really criticising the material.

I've stated twice in this thread that the material is good basics. I'll go further and say that anyone who isn't familiar with what Tim is offering would benefit tremendously I'm sure if they were to buy the dvd and actually do the work. I have no doubt that Tim explains everything in straightforward, simple terms and shows how to graduate the training's intensity and levels of resistance. I have no problem seeing it for what it is.

I also pointed out that the structure of the training changes once enviro, terrain and context comes into the mix. All I saw was guys with bare feet on a mat. What I failed to say was how dramatically the change is once one makes that leap - how the whole focus of the training shifts.

Nobody who has watched the entire dvd mentioned anything in their review(s) about those ideas, so I was left with the impression that the material starts and finishes on the mat. I may be wrong, but I don't think what's shown in the clip is conducive to really breaking things down under 'realistic' conditions. The fact that Tim's guys think that's a slight against Tim - instead of seeing what I'm saying for what it is - says to me that the material they're covering on the dvd isn't being trained outdoors on hard, unforgiving surfaces, and that it makes what I'm saying moot to those of us who have trained that way. Again, that's not a slight. It's an observation of how Tims guys view the material through a different training experience that ignores a more 'realistic' level of exploration.

I'm just wondering how one can realistically train material for street fighting without putting it in its proper perspectives? I think it's a fair question that doesn't require me to post a clip to one-up anybody in order to substantiate the reasoning behind it.

Hey man I'm with you on the importance of training on the cold hard ground for real self defense. It's so important.

Okay, I take a little time off and I see that this inane argument has gotten to five pages. Without naming names, I'd like to ask all of you (three) guys who think that Tim Cartmell doesn't train people for "realistic" situations:

1. Have you ever been trained by Tim Cartmell?
2. Have you ever grappled with or been thrown by Tim Cartmell?
3. If the answer to numbers 1 or 2 above is "yes", would you be willing to be thrown on the "cold hard ground" by Tim Cartmell and have it all captured on video?

Gosh, I have one more question: In your quest for badass realism have you ever willingly allowed yourself to be thrown onto concrete, asphalt or any other cold, hard (and very realistic) surface? If your answer is "yes", then you're a drooling moron.

I happen to study with the guy, but it seems that on RSF, the only noted martial arts teacher whose mention immediately starts this "he doesn't teach the real stuff" bullshit is Tim Cartmell. Just bring up the "Xing Yi Nei Gong" book and it's off to the races! And, it's always the same names chiming in - many of whom haven't even stood on the same continent with Tim. Some of them even think that taiji is a martial art, for God's sake! Why don't you just take a break from your grindingly boring jobs, come out to Orange County, challenge Tim and see how realistic he is (or isn't)? In that way, you could quit your pussyish whining that always comes up in these discussions, usually involving a variation of "Tim's guys are rude and don't like it when others express their views ". Here's my view: There's a nice asphalt parking lot in front of Ace Jiu-jitsu. Go out there with Tim, attack him, and report here your findings, after your reconstructive surgery, physical therapy and cognitive rehabilitation have been completed.

I'm in a shitty mood, because my surfing injury from 1986 has fucked my back for life. I'd like to return to training with Tim (but not in the parking lot), but, at the present time, it's hard to get up from a chair without shrieking. Come out to California, reality-seekers! It'll give me something fun to watch.

Oh snap, now its getting real! ah yea!

kshurika wrote:Okay, I take a little time off and I see that this inane argument has gotten to five pages. Without naming names, I'd like to ask all of you (three) guys who think that Tim Cartmell doesn't train people for "realistic" situations:

1. Have you ever been trained by Tim Cartmell?
2. Have you ever grappled with or been thrown by Tim Cartmell?
3. If the answer to numbers 1 or 2 above is "yes", would you be willing to be thrown on the "cold hard ground" by Tim Cartmell and have it all captured on video?

Gosh, I have one more question: In your quest for badass realism have you ever willingly allowed yourself to be thrown onto concrete, asphalt or any other cold, hard (and very realistic) surface? If your answer is "yes", then you're a drooling moron.

Well that's interesting - cos I posed pretty much the same question to a couple of Tim's guys ragging on a Systema clip , and the response was they didn't even need to see how I trained to know it was useless. Not much consistency going on there - if you can't take it, don't dish it out

We don't use mats for training so yes, we do throw onto hard surfaces. Drooling morons? nice touch. Funny how people get so offensively defensive about their favourite teachers

Some thoughts on "street vs sport" - it's a pointless argument, like most "this vs that" internet debates
http://robpoyton.blogspot.com/2011/02/competition-and-conflict.html

Oh dear, what a mess this thread turned out to be. Anyway, I ordered the DVD - I think it looks great, I'll let you guys know what I think of it. But, obviously my shit is fake, so it doesn't matter

Anyway, this quote is the most awesome thing I've read today, and I've read several articles on technology already, I might add.

"Come out to California, reality-seekers!"

RobP2 said:

Well that's interesting - cos I posed pretty much the same question to a couple of Tim's guys ragging on a Systema clip , and the response was they didn't even need to see how I trained to know it was useless. Not much consistency going on there - if you can't take it, don't dish it out

What's the controversy here? Everybody knows Systema is useless..... unless, of course, you're attacked by someone very, very slowly who is holding a red marker and moving to a subtle dance beat. Then, you can join in and dance with your attacker as the center of your t-shirt collects red dots. And, of course Systema uses hard surfaces, because you go down on them very, very, very slowly.



Anyway, thanks for lifting my mood. I can even get out of my chair now.