The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

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The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby hamid on Sat May 14, 2011 9:14 am

Last edited by hamid on Sat May 14, 2011 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby Josealb on Sat May 14, 2011 7:09 pm

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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby D_Glenn on Sat May 14, 2011 7:24 pm

Gathering bits and pieces of information over the years and I think the best description of the difference and how Xingyi came to be is because Xin Yi first uses the torso method called 'Fan Lang Jin' (Reversing Wave Power) to put power into it's strikes. This also reverses flow down the 'Du' meridian and brings power back to the Dantian with force, which if you don't have a well developed Dantian it will cause some internal problems, hence the requirement of 3 years of standing practice before you start any training. The creation of Xingyiquan came from the desire and need to have an art that one can practice immediately so they took only the techniques from Xin Yi that use the torso methods of 'Bo Lang Jin' (Crushing Wave Power) where the power comes from the Dantian and follows the normal flow up the 'Du' meridian to power the strikes, this way the practice of learning to power strikes and developing the Dantian through standing practices could be done simultaneously and take the new student to a high level of skill in a shorter amount of time.


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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby I-mon on Sat May 14, 2011 7:36 pm

first youtube vid to come up when searching for the words "squat jump":



can someone tell me what the difference is between the basic leg-torso mechanics shown here and those of xinyi? to me they look and feel the same, in xinyi we also train to pull the whole body together into the contracted position so both directions are active rather than passively dropping down and actively exploding up, but otherwise I don't see what's different.

Hamid your movement is looking more relaxed than before.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby kenneth fish on Sat May 14, 2011 9:31 pm

Quite different, actually. In XYLH the most basic thrust is from heel or mid-foot to crown along the length of the torso. The squat jump is simply leg extension (and plantar flexion) - off of the balls of the feet. In XYLY there is also a stretch of the spine and ribs. If we are talking about HuPu there is also wave motion and flexing at the hip, if Yitou Shuaibei then there is also rotation around the central axis and the axis of the hip joint.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby I-mon on Sat May 14, 2011 9:41 pm

you don't think anyone with a decent squat jump will also be using their whole spine and ribs? do you think it's possible to perform explosive leg extension without engaging the whole posterior chain? I don't, but I'm not sure. I can't really do squats or anything else without naturally using the IMA mechanics that have sunk in over the years.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby I-mon on Sat May 14, 2011 9:46 pm

try watching repeatedly the bit in the squat jump video from 0:24 to 0:27, and tell me if you think he's using his spine and torso. he's stiff in the neck and shoulders so he's definitely missing out on the connections through the upper parts, but otherwise it still seems essentially the same to me. i reckon if someone gave him a good rolfing those parts would naturally kick in as well.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby kenneth fish on Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm

No, I don't - I think most of the action is pretty much where the demonstrator is describing it, and although it is a very forceful leg extension and plantar flexion, I don't see it as analogous to the basic XYLH movement.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby I-mon on Sat May 14, 2011 10:44 pm

interesting...

so Ken, if you (meaning you personally, someone who's done many years of IMA practice) do something like a squat jump does it feel like your body naturally does it with ingrained IMA spinal/torso mechanics, or are you able to do it just using the legs?

It's part of this whole 'natural movement' debate we've had going on here for a while, in which I've been taking the position that most basic IMA mechanics (like the spinal extension and ribcage activation we're talking about here) are actually the way healthy spines, ribs, legs etc should coordinate.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby hamid on Sat May 14, 2011 11:33 pm

Hamid your movement is looking more relaxed than before.

Thank you for your answers!
I am not an uncomfortable before the camera.
My partners in the training room can not understand how I come out of the force with my upper body and arms completely relaxed.

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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby hamid on Sun May 15, 2011 2:43 am

alexg wrote:Hamid the first time I saw one of your clips I said you needed stronger legs.


Trduction Google!
The three levels of xin yi
1) The visible power
2) The hidden power.
3) Transform, combine the two.

The human body is divided into three parts.
1- the top or the end part.
2- the middle or the centre part.
3-the bottom or the root part.
Part of the end of the body begins followed by the center, the root of the body grows.

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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun May 15, 2011 2:44 am

D_Glenn wrote:Gathering bits and pieces of information over the years and I think the best description of the difference and how Xingyi came to be is because Xin Yi first uses the torso method called 'Fan Lang Jin' (Reversing Wave Power) to put power into it's strikes. This also reverses flow down the 'Du' meridian and brings power back to the Dantian with force, which if you don't have a well developed Dantian it will cause some internal problems, hence the requirement of 3 years of standing practice before you start any training. The creation of Xingyiquan came from the desire and need to have an art that one can practice immediately so they took only the techniques from Xin Yi that use the torso methods of 'Bo Lang Jin' (Crushing Wave Power) where the power comes from the Dantian and follows the normal flow up the 'Du' meridian to power the strikes, this way the practice of learning to power strikes and developing the Dantian through standing practices could be done simultaneously and take the new student to a high level of skill in a shorter amount of time.
.


Interesting to read about it from a TCM perspective. I was only familiar with the mechanics of it. Xing Yi still has Fan Lang Jin in some movements, and XinYi also has Bo Lang Jin in several movements too. In terms of manipulating an opponent (not striking), I think Bo Lang is just generally more useful. It is aided by gravity, and can be used with more applications.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sun May 15, 2011 3:00 am

I-mon wrote:interesting...
can someone tell me what the difference is between the basic leg-torso mechanics shown here and those of xinyi? to me they look and feel the same, in xinyi we also train to pull the whole body together into the contracted position so both directions are active rather than passively dropping down and actively exploding up, but otherwise I don't see what's different..


You just misanalysed the whole exercise IMO. I'll give you the Xing Yi perspective since I don't practice XinYi... But I think some of it will be the same for XinYi as well.

Bodyweight Squat:
1. Vertical force and plane
2. Head is straight
3. Legs do at least 90% of the work
4. Spine curved
5. Double-weighted
6. No Intent
7. Only muscles performing the work are alert
8. Only legs and core are "connected", and tension is high
9. Can only be preformed up to a moderately high speed.
10. Quadriceps are primary movers.
11. Little gastrocnemius activity.

Pi Quan:
1. Horizontal force and plane (only combined with vertical upon striking)
2. Head looks at an angle - neck is erect and twisted.
3. Legs do 70% of the work
4. Spine erected and straight
5. Never double-weighted
6. Lots of Intent
7. All muscles are alert
8. The whole body is connected. Tension is kept as low as possible, except for the moment of impact
9. Can be performed at a very high speed.
10. Hamstrings and Glutes are primary movers.
11. Lots of gastrocnemius activity, especially when moving rapidly.


There are lots of other differences. You just don't use the same mechanics. It's like comparing running and climbing because they both work the leg muscles...
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Sun May 15, 2011 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

Postby I-mon on Sun May 15, 2011 8:10 am

lots of curved spines and deep squats in xinyi:



saying that an explosive squat jump is 90% legs or mostly quadriceps is to me making the same mistake as saying that the "raise hands" opening movement from tai chi is done primarily with the deltoid muscles of the shoulders. anything like a squat jump should be a whole body exercise i'm surprised to hear anyone say that it's not.
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