The difference between xing yi and Xin Yi Liu He Quan?

[hamid]

lots of curved spines and deep squats in xinyi:



saying that an explosive squat jump is 90% legs or mostly quadriceps is to me making the same mistake as saying that the "raise hands" opening movement from tai chi is done primarily with the deltoid muscles of the shoulders. anything like a squat jump should be a whole body exercise i'm surprised to hear anyone say that it's not.

Si Ba Chui is an original and abbreviated form of Xin Yi Liu He Quans that focuses on the study and the analyse of the fundamental strengths. It contains basic legends of Neijia and the Xin Yi strength. Throughout a Si Ba Chui practise, four techniques are used. Each of theses develops a specific strength:

1. Xing Zhou (= the eagle that catches)
2. Tiao Ling (= the controlled raising)
3. Heng Quan (= the transversal hidden strength)
4. Zhan Shou (= the transversal strength that pierces).
Lü Yuan Zhi

Lü Rui Fang (1908-1999)


http://hamid160.skyrock.com/


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Brady]

To my low level self, squat jumps have no element of a twist in the waist, while XYLH training (the way I was taught) demands a maximal rotation of the upper body from the hips while maintaining the connection from foot to crown Ken talks of. This really changes the way muscles work, and it seems the obliques cannot help the transverse abdominus because they are in such a maximal twist. Comparatively, chicken step without the waist twist and line up of front foot,knee,hip, shoulder, and forehead/eyes is like a walk in the park, and is probably more analogous to a simple squat jump.

edit: To add a bit, it seems my teacher really emphasized the waist twist for me because I had a foundational level of strength but poor differentation between my hips and waist. Early on he teaches people in a way similar to a squat jump with relatively little twist to help them build strength. Then, after the twist is integrated with relative ease and smoothness, you can begin to do things without it and maintain the appropriate deep muscle activation.
I-mon, I imagine the guy in the clip you posted has trained his gongfu to such a level that even without obviously showing such a intense twist, his lumbopelvic muscles are activated in a very different way then your average squat jump exerciser.

[Strange]

it amazes me how you can teach ppl, i hope you dun get your student seriously injured

[kenneth fish]

Strange - was your comment directed towards any one of us in particular, or a general "you" (as in "youse guys")? (BTW, are you in Singapore? I may be there later this year).

I-mon: one should be able to integrate and not integrate at will - so yes, I can do squat. Er, let me rephrase that. Yes, I can do squat jumps using just mostly glutes, leg extensors, and plantar flexors. On the other hand, a squat thrust is a very good exercise to build basic long axis thrust for CMA.

[jonathan.bluestein]

lots of curved spines and deep squats in xinyi:

saying that an explosive squat jump is 90% legs or mostly quadriceps is to me making the same mistake as saying that the "raise hands" opening movement from tai chi is done primarily with the deltoid muscles of the shoulders. anything like a squat jump should be a whole body exercise i'm surprised to hear anyone say that it's not.

That's why I wrote of Xing Yi rather than XinYi. In any case, in XinYi and Dai XinYi the spine is slightly curved in a "C" shape, not an "S" shape as in the squat. In fact, the key to a technically sound squat it maintaining the S shape - you can't lift heavy otherwise.

In the video posted in this thread, the coach makes very little use of whole-body power generation. It's mostly legs. Yes indeed - you can make it a more whole-body like movement. Will still be more leg oriented than a Pi Quan.

As Brady mentioned, the Squat also lacks torquing and twisting. I'd add that the Squat also doesn't involve corkscrewing/rooting into the ground with the whole body, because gravity provides most of the root with downwards power.

These are just very different movements. Squat are used to build vertical raw power, useful for carrying and lifting stuff. Martial Arts training is for tackling an opponent, who usually confronts us of the horizontal plain. The intersection between these two, as I see it, may only occur with some upward-striking, or throws that involve carrying the opponent and tossing him. Don't get me wrong on this. I like Squats and Deadlifts. I used to do lots of these. But their value for MA is limited. Training them was training time that could have been invested on my XY. Training them drained my legs so I could train less XY. It was was a hard, but logical decision to drop them from my training regime...

[johnwang]

I have never seen Chinese women dress like that in my life.

[jonathan.bluestein]

I have never seen Chinese women dress like that in my life.

They are Muslims. True Muslim and Ultra-orthodox Jews literally cover-up their women. Women are seen as sexual objects. In Islam, they're forced to either cover their entire body and heads once they get their first period, and sometimes their entire body besides the eyes. Among the Ultra-orthodox Jews, they're forced to walk outside with "very modest" clothing, and cover their heads as well. Some Ultra-orthodox rabbis even forced the women in their communities to shave their heads and wear wigs. The entire "cover up the woman thing" stems from the perverted thought that the mere sight of a woman's body is teasing men to think immodest thoughts, and seduce them to committing "forbidden" acts. That's the logic behind religious fanaticism. It's the same logic that can drive one to suicide-bomb in a bus full of children. Jewish Halacha and Muslim Shari'a both allow men to marry and have sexual intercourse with young girls.

I bet you guys didn't even know that Al-Qaeda had started all sorts of operations in China among the Chinese Muslims. The Chinese government eliminated that threat by silently getting read of people, which is their specialty Stupidity ain't limited to any one country.

[I-mon]

ok I was replying to DGlenns thing about the tuck-untuck power generation used in xinyiliuhe. I wasn't saying that the squat jump exercise specifically was identical to xylh in every way, or that the video posted was the best demonstration of a squat jump. hence the "first vid to come up on a search" - i thought that was pretty clear.

my point was that curling and uncurling of the spine is a natural part of squatting and exploding/thrusting out of a squat. I had never actually searched for or heard of a specific exercise called a "squat jump", I just know that these mechanics are part of the way a healthy body should move when squatting and jumping.

here's the first result of a search for "squat thrust":



now again, in case it's not obvious, I'll say that it's not identical to xinyiliuhe in every way. the tuck-untuck spinal curl-and-extend is what is very similar. yes it's double weighted. make it single weighted, push off one weighted leg with a forward direction and it will naturally get a twist through the spiral lines as well as full extension through the posterior chain.

once more: i was only talking about the tucking-untucking use of the spine which DGlenn was distinguishing from the untucking-tucking mechanics of xingyi. Just that, no one needs to tell me about torquing, "intent", double-weighting, etc.

[kenneth fish]

John:

I guess you were never near the QIng Zhen Si in Taipei during prayers, or at the Qingzhen restaurant on Heping East Road near Roosevelt Road. I remember very clearly seeing women with head coverings 40 years ago.

[Strange]

ken, i was posting for the benefit of hamid.
did you see the vid that he posted? it was jelly limp all over; and honestly, dicussing stuff with him (i feel) might make him him whatever he is doing is alright - its not.

if light, one might get a sprain or broken finger. if its heavy, you might have internal injuries.

hey, a forummer from afar! i am in singapore
just so happens that i have kungfu of a different kind on my mind recently; might be good to sound off ideas with an experienced person, if you're interested of course.

[bailewen]

I just passed a group of about 20 of them last night on my way to the night market. Was wondering if it was some sort of Islamic holiday because, while I see a lot of those get ups around here (I live on the border of the Hui district in Xi'an), I have never seen so many all together and they were even wearing brightly colored head coverings. It looked like a big banquet on card tables set up on the sidewalk in front of a Lanzhou noodle restaurant.

[kenneth fish]

Strange:

I wondered-other posters have made similar comments in that regard (c. x. long made a fairly direct comment in French regarding one of his videos).

What sort of kung fu would you like to discuss?

[NoSword]

I have never seen Chinese women dress like that in my life.

They are Muslims. True Muslim and Ultra-orthodox Jews literally cover-up their women. Women are seen as sexual objects. In Islam, they're forced to either cover their entire body and heads once they get their first period, and sometimes their entire body besides the eyes. Among the Ultra-orthodox Jews, they're forced to walk outside with "very modest" clothing, and cover their heads as well. Some Ultra-orthodox rabbis even forced the women in their communities to shave their heads and wear wigs. The entire "cover up the woman thing" stems from the perverted thought that the mere sight of a woman's body is teasing men to think immodest thoughts, and seduce them to committing "forbidden" acts. That's the logic behind religious fanaticism. It's the same logic that can drive one to suicide-bomb in a bus full of children. Jewish Halacha and Muslim Shari'a both allow men to marry and have sexual intercourse with young girls.

I bet you guys didn't even know that Al-Qaeda had started all sorts of operations in China among the Chinese Muslims. The Chinese government eliminated that threat by silently getting read of people, which is their specialty Stupidity ain't limited to any one country.

Gee, if I didn't know better Jonathan, I'd think you had some sort of an axe to grind against religion!

Hell , if I lived in your neck of the woods I might too.

AK

[Strange]

ken, so i've been a nag. but i think in this case its warranted.

got you curious haven't i ? heh heh. i was thinking about how kungfu use to be a way to lift oneself out of poverty and how we can apply principles and values systems that can make economic and material success for ppl like us.

cos it seems like we live in an age where success is measured in economic terms; whether you are thinking of yourself or providing a comfortable life for your family. "yeah i know you are a badass lineage holder with the goods, but what was it you said you earned last month?"

you know what i mean?..... being elite like...

[robmix]

I just passed a group of about 20 of them last night on my way to the night market. Was wondering if it was some sort of Islamic holiday because, while I see a lot of those get ups around here (I live on the border of the Hui district in Xi'an), I have never seen so many all together and they were even wearing brightly colored head coverings. It looked like a big banquet on card tables set up on the sidewalk in front of a Lanzhou noodle restaurant.

Agreed, spend a little time in Xi'an, especially in the night market, and you'll see lots of Chinese women dressed like that . . .