Michael Phillips clip

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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby donjitsu2 on Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:48 am

neijia_boxer wrote:i thought that hook punching looked horrible in structure.

1. looks like he almost loses balance after the strike.
2. hands are down to take a counter-punch on the chin.
3. over rotates and starts to give opponent his back.

horrible!


Yeah, his punches suck. I don't care how "internal" your punches are. If they leave you open to getting punched/kicked in the face, then they suck.

(The fun starts at 5:08)

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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Michael Babin on Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:07 am

Re: Bwil's recent post on his first question

An honest caveat to what I am going to write is I can only give a guess based on my experience with others who do it better than I as well as my own experience with my own students over the years as well as martial colleagues in Ottawa when we are comparing notes.

Mr. Phillips seems to be using a whole body shake upwards from the floor but on a very subtle level. This is certainly in keeping with similar skills I have seen elsewhere in taiji and some of which I can do myself. The responses he gets from his dummies are possibly legitimate because they are presenting a solid structure for him to affect; AND/OR possibly a conditioned set-up as often happens when trusting students are in awe of their teacher. It doesn't have to be a conscious set-up and often isn't in the more honest teachers. It's just the kind of psychological mechanism that can result from being in awe of someone and knowing how you are expected to respond.

Such demos usually rely on the dummy shaping up in a structure that lends itself to being bounced or flung backwards. That seems to be the case in the films I watched by Mr. Phillips.

Is that skill of being able to generate an upwards shock with minimal movement of the arms and torso hard to do… "yes"… does it show whole body coordination and an aspect of fa-jing skill…. "yes"… is is useful for fighting… "Maybe, maybe not" Any one who attacks you with any experience fighting or with blood lust won't "shape-up" in a way that allows you to do such dramatic demonstrations of making him "hop like a sparrow".

So, in my opinion, the skill is difficult to learn as it requires time to mature such ability and being able to do so does demonstrate a real competence at what is considered an essential aspect of martial taiji. Will it be much use in a real fight… depends on how many other relevant skills and experience you can bring to the brawl … and how crafty, hungry and skillful the person attacking you will be.
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby nianfong on Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:27 pm

donjitsu2 wrote:
neijia_boxer wrote:i thought that hook punching looked horrible in structure.

1. looks like he almost loses balance after the strike.
2. hands are down to take a counter-punch on the chin.
3. over rotates and starts to give opponent his back.

horrible!


Yeah, his punches suck. I don't care how "internal" your punches are. If they leave you open to getting punched/kicked in the face, then they suck.

(The fun starts at 5:08)



they suck also because they really aren't that powerful. compare that punch to one from, say, manny pacquiao.
see the :48 mark
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby nianfong on Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:28 pm

donjitsu2 wrote:
neijia_boxer wrote:i thought that hook punching looked horrible in structure.

1. looks like he almost loses balance after the strike.
2. hands are down to take a counter-punch on the chin.
3. over rotates and starts to give opponent his back.

horrible!


Yeah, his punches suck. I don't care how "internal" your punches are. If they leave you open to getting punched/kicked in the face, then they suck.

(The fun starts at 5:08)



they suck also because they really aren't that powerful. compare that punch to one from, say, manny pacquiao.
see the :46 mark
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Bwil on Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:24 pm

Thank you Michael for the lengthy reply. I especially like your summation of the relative usefulness of this type of ability. I wonder if you could provide any more detail on what actually happens during a "whole body shake"? In another recent discussion I had it explained to me as an aspect of peng jin like this: "The sphere is elastic. It can be shrinked and expanded by internal body/mind mechanism. The movement is not detectable because the sphere is not formed by external movement or deformation of body parts. There definitely are movements inside." and this mirrors my own understanding and instruction of peng though at a level I cannot personally manifest. However this is just a description of the phenomenon and not an explanation of the actual mechanism.

I freely admit that I am guilty here of trying to think my way into this skill set. Additionally I'm trying to describe the view from the top of the mountain while still be some good way short of the peak. That said the typical vernacular of cima is so full of vagueness, ambiguity, mistranslation and misinterpretation that I have a particular interest in fleshing out the language and understanding of the physical mechanisms employed. I like Chinese philosophy and TCM as much as the next guy (masters in east asian philosophy, masters in Chinese medicine and its how I pay my bills) but I would like to see the gigantic holes in understanding that allow so much that is a disservice to and in many cases the defining representation of cima be closed so that the arts in general be more honest and more seriously valued from other perspectives.

To the issue of Mr. Phillips punches, I agree they are of less interest to me than his grappling skills. I don't think its fair to compare Mr. Phillips and the amazing Manny Pacquiao who may be the greatest athlete of the last 50 years. Its going to take a lot for someone in the taiji community to convince me that they have a method of generating striking power that is more destructive than a boxers punches or mt round kicks. The main argument here however is the power generated vs energy expended ratio and the effect of age on the ability to continue to generate power.

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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby nianfong on Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:59 pm

ok, let's compare him to an older man:
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Methods on Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:21 pm

He reminds me of a Turtle...

Not an impressive Turtle BTW. I think what this guy has going for him is that he can explain movement very well. A very smart and well thought out and spoken guy. He seems very likable, whats really not to like. I know guys like this guy, he could sell the shit out of cars, be a lawyer or a great HR guy - Mr Corporate robot! instead he chose the wonderful world of Internal Martial fake arts.
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby cerebus on Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:09 pm

Methods wrote:He reminds me of a Turtle...

Not an impressive Turtle BTW. I think what this guy has going for him is that he can explain movement very well. A very smart and well thought out and spoken guy. He seems very likable, whats really not to like. I know guys like this guy, he could sell the shit out of cars, be a lawyer or a great HR guy - Mr Corporate robot! instead he chose the wonderful world of Internal Martial fake arts.


Well, I don't think he's as bad as all that, or fake to any degree. I'm sure he has a better grasp of the combative aspects of Tai Chi than most Tai Chi instructors. If I recall correctly, he's a student of William C. C. Chen...
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby meeks on Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:17 pm

nianfong wrote:ok, let's compare him to an older man:


whoa... that totally reminds me of my old xing yi teacher...
"The power of Christ compels you!" *spank*
now with ADDED SMOOTHOSITY! ;D
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby Michael Babin on Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:52 am

I think that the old xingyi master that nianfong posted shows great alignment and power despite his age and he looks healthy as well. It's not very empirical but one of the ways I judge "experts" is whether or not they look healthy, no matter what their age [or whether they smoke or carry a few too many pounds].

For Bwil… I wouldn't dare try to teach using the spine and the feet to do even taiji "tricks" by using words on a computer screen. Intellectualization and old verbal analogies can only take you so far in developing specialized physical skills. On the other hand, it is fun to try stuff and one exercise that I was shown years ago that can help is also one that you can sort-of practise in public.

Find a heavy door -- preferably of heavy wood -- in a public building and stand quietly in front of it at a fairly close range, put both your palms on it at a comfortable height and relax your hands. Make sure your elbows are comfortably bent. Open the door by flexing your ankles and pressing into the ground by straightening your spine upwards [i.e., the feeling is like you are about to spring forward, up and out off of a diving board] more than by moving your arms.

As in a good taiji push/bounce, the power comes more from your feet and ankles meshing with the lengthening of the spine than it does from the arms straightening and exerting force.

At first, don't try to move the door much, just get the feeling of it moving because of your body action… later on trying doing this suddenly and with force to see if the door will open violently with minimal movement of your body and arms. P.S. You may get funny looks in a mall and be careful you don't smash the glass if it's a big glass door hitting the wall when you try the forceful version of this.

Do this ten times every day for a 1000 days, grasshopper, and soon you will be able to defeat almost any door that attacks you! ;)
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Re: Michael Phillips clip

Postby neijia_boxer on Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:51 am

I like some of Micheal's punching clip in terms of principles and power. I have even shared the clip with other Tai chi people to convince them about Tai Chi striking as a fundamental trait for fighting before using pushing in Tai Chi chuan.

michael says he is a student of William CC Chen. I trust William CC Chen very much and have been to his seminars which do cover striking mechanics and form. William CC Chen likes to teach how a strike at the right point can unbalance and take opponent off their feet the same way a push can.
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